People hating or disparaging Gary Gygax... • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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People hating or disparaging Gary Gygax...
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Alexander
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:50 pm

I got today the Famous Parcel from Troll & Toad with the magazines I bought on eBay (and they did a mistake with one of them

) but The Gamer arrived safely and I read with much interest the article about Gary Gygax and, most importantly, the one about New Inifinities Productions. The opinions of Kim Mohan and Don Turnbull are harsh, especially Turnbull's ones that are VERY harsh, about Gay Gygax (and there is something for Frank Mentzer that Turnbull labels as a 'Gygax brown noser' :?:

).

How many people out there have (or had) bad opinions about Gary? Are there any interviews with them? Are there any reasons for their antipathy? I still have a high esteem for Gary Gygax and miss him very much :cry:

BUT I'd like to know more.

By the way, The Gamer was a fine magazine. Does anybody know how many issues were put out before it folded?

ashmire13
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:12 pm

I should imagine a lot of Turnbulls views stem from TSR UK and Imagine going bang.

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mbassoc2003
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:27 pm

Has anyone ever put down in writing what exactly went on with the ousting of EGG and the fall of TSR?

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Badmike
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:45 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:Has anyone ever put down in writing what exactly went on with the ousting of EGG and the fall of TSR?

Ive seen several pretty detailed posts about it here and there on the internet. I beleive Steve Winter has posted a pretty interesting take somewhere.

As for the UK guys I've always seen a lot of snide remarks and such from them towards EGG and D&D and I've always thought as Ashmire did it was because of what happened with TSR UK.

I think like anyone else it was whoever's ox was being gored. I'm sure most ex-SPI employees wouldn't have much good to say about EGG and TSR.

Mike B.

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ashmire13
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:58 pm

I think Imagine 30 and GM Pubs 1-5 paint a pretty clear picture about what the guys from the old TSR UK think

I guess it may have some basis, but as per most things, its one take on an outcome and probably hard now to get a true view of what went on and why.

I suspect it was a lot to do with direction of the company and corporate decisions.

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Alexander
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Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:43 am

Turnbull attacks Gary Gygax mostly for his handling of New Infinities Productions, having 'lured' him to the US to run the company and discovering at the arrival there was - in Turnbull's version - no money and no products to speak of. He was very, very bitter. And Kim Mohan is quoted as saying that with the new management TSR was better

(but; I hasten to add, he was editor of Amazing Stories then published by TSR :roll:

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:48 am

To put this in perspective, back in the 80's UK compenies were not too 'globally aware' and the general feeling in society about companies outside of the UK having control or influence over their property within the UK was what could only be termed 'ignorant working class thinking'. Thankfully that sort of ignornace is now very much limited to factory workers, and the rest of society seems to have woken up and embrased the global economic reality. But then it has been 20+ years.

Whatever happened, they all managed to seriously screw a successful company. Maybe they too couldn't see change happening and couldn't mentally move forward.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Invincible Overlord
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:15 am

As far as people hating Gygax, what about that guy that wrote in his 1st Edition Players Handbook... I can't remember his name at the moment...

RPGâ€™s, D&D in particular has had a major influence in my life. Itâ€™s bonded me together with life long friends...itâ€™s that bond in life not just as friends, but in our jokes, our mannerisms, and what we find funny. Invincible Overlord

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:34 am

Was it Perleman or something like that?
Yes, where is it and is it still gathering signatures?

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Tharizdun
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:41 am

"And Kim Mohan is quoted as saying that with the new management TSR was better"

From my readings it appears that TSR was never really under good management. They had the fad thing going for them at the get go was why they were so "successful" early on imo. I don't think the management there could ever be considered amazing or anything at any point in time:/

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FormCritic
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:44 pm

Undoubtedly, the management was better from a business operations and consistency point of view.

The new owner was clever as all get out, right up until she got too clever and lost the company all in one whoosh through mis-calculation and arrogance.

From a gaming point of view, the company made increasingly poor decisions from the time of Gygax's exit. Gygax was the one who actually understood games and why people buy them. Others in the company may have known the industry, but they were not at the helm.

Mohan would be a specific case in point. Mohan once wrote in DRAGON that he did not play Dungeons and Dragons and that was probably a good thing because it made him more "neutral." Why DRAGON's readers would want "neutral" in place of "passion" or "expertise" escapes me, but it probably made sense to Mohan.

From Mohan's point of view, as a non-player (non-enthusiast, non-hobbyist, not in the target demographic), fiscal efficiency and clear management guidance probably seemed like a better company, and it probably was.

However - the results, both gaming and business, were clearly disastrous for TSR.

Maybe it was inevitable.

Those who are prone to hate on WOTC would do well to remember that TSR failed because of bad management. WOTC (a company created by gamer enthusiasts) gave the Dungeons and Dragons hobby an infusion of cash and enthusiasm that resulted in another decade of gaming goodness...even if 4th Edition is not what we would like it to be.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

Badmike
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:53 pm

FormCritic wrote:Undoubtedly, the management was better from a business operations and consistency point of view.

The new owner was clever as all get out, right up until she got too clever and lost the company all in one whoosh through mis-calculation and arrogance.

From a gaming point of view, the company made increasingly poor decisions from the time of Gygax's exit. Gygax was the one who actually understood games and why people buy them. Others in the company may have known the industry, but they were not at the helm.

Mohan would be a specific case in point. Mohan once wrote in DRAGON that he did not play Dungeons and Dragons and that was probably a good thing because it made him more "neutral." Why DRAGON's readers would want "neutral" in place of "passion" or "expertise" escapes me, but it probably made sense to Mohan.

From Mohan's point of view, as a non-player (non-enthusiast, non-hobbyist, not in the target demographic), fiscal efficiency and clear management guidance probably seemed like a better company, and it probably was.

However - the results, both gaming and business, were clearly disastrous for TSR.

Maybe it was inevitable.

Those who are prone to hate on WOTC would do well to remember that TSR failed because of bad management. WOTC (a company created by gamer enthusiasts) gave the Dungeons and Dragons hobby an infusion of cash and enthusiasm that resulted in another decade of gaming goodness...even if 4th Edition is not what we would like it to be.

I'm too lazy to look it up, but was Mohan the editor when Dragon went off into 18 million directions (Ares was folded in, etc)? If so that explains a lot.

Maybe this market focus at the expense of playability led to disatrous decisions like Spellfire cards, Dragon Dice, and products no one asked for nor played or used when they came out (Player packs, anyone?)

Mike B.

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FormCritic
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:42 pm

My collection list shows Mohan as editor of DRAGON from 43-114 and 199-219.

I believe the ARES section does fall into that timeline, but I would not necessarily blame Mohan personally for it.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

Badmike
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:13 pm

FormCritic wrote:My collection list shows Mohan as editor of DRAGON from 43-114 and 199-219.

I believe the ARES section does fall into that timeline, but I would not necessarily blame Mohan personally for it.

That is ironic, because the period Mohan was first there (#43-#114) is one of the strongest runs ever. Except for the ARES stuff cutting the fantasy game material down, it was a pretty good read during that time (especially #43-#90 or so).

The #199-#219 period was pretty bad, but Dragon didn't get good again until after the sabbatical (I.e. the period TSR had no money and didn't print anything and WOTC took over) around #230 or so.

Mike B.

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FormCritic
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:06 pm

Checking my collection list, I discover that the last TSR DRAGON was around 256.

Found an error in my list - I have copies of 257 and 258 recorded under both TSR and WOTC.

(Multiple copies added to the list at different times.)

David Gross was the editor under both TSR and WOTC...unless my list is even more screwed up than that.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

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