Hi everyone! Long time no see, virtually speaking.  

Well, the Back In Print Project needs to find a serious artist to do some art for our latest project, Ruins of Undermountain III: The Deadly Levels. You can find info on the project, including some previews, here:

http://undermountain.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=13

Basically it's an expansion of Undermountain set in the Forgotten Realms, done in 2E style. It's going to be a free product, so originally we were looking for an artist who simply wanted to be part of the project without pay, since none of the other team members are getting paid, but that hasn't worked. The two artists we did find suffered major injuries and are no longer able to  draw for the foreseeable future. So we decided to simply pay for art.

So if anyone wants to participate, please let me know. We're looking for more 2E-style art, not 1E-style since this is a 2E type product. It would entail probably 40 pieces of art, maybe a few more, but nothing hugely complex or detailed. I can discuss it in more detail with whoever is interested.

Looking forward to seeing some art submissions for consideration!  

What an asshat to tar all artists with the same brush. Having seen some of the work in bbarsh series of modules currently being produced, maybe if you respect people and deal in a professional manner rather than publicly calling them all flaky, mental, arseholes you might get some work...
As JB says, good luck with that...

First of all...How far does this guy think he is going get using Undermountain III? Apparently he thinks he can just produce whatever he wants without regard to the OGL or OGC.

Second, he needs to get perspective artists excited about the pro bono project instead of demanding performance. Free is great, but time is not generally free. Expecting an artist to be as excited about his little pet project is not realistic.

That is not to say he can't find some artists to help out, but his presentation is not going to get him what he wants.

So there you have it. Ask an artist to work for free on a project that virtually no one will ever see and at best infringes of WotC copyrights might be a bit of stretch.

Sorry if this is not the correct thread for this post, but I would like to join the back in print/undermountain forums but am disallowed b/c my username is unacceptable. I am in particular requesting that Halaster read my request and indicate how I might register in his forums. Thanks

Guys, please take the flame-war elsewhere.  

It's not that I don't love a good flame-war, I just don't like foreign wars.  Now, if someone wants to get into it with me over which PHB has the best stitching -- bring it on.

Deimos, I wasn't flaming. Just giving fair warning to my artistic brethren. The same way you'd warn about a bad seller on eBay.

A bit of background it needed for some balance here, since Jaybird seems to have a personal vendetta against me even though for the life of me I cannot recall ever having any sort of problems between us. Maybe it's a Dragonsfoot thing.  

First, I am not tarring all artists with the same brush. But yes, a lot of artists I've had to deal with are, to use someone else's words here, "asshats". Before you criticize my low opinion of so many (note: not all) artists, you should put yourself through what I've been through with them.

We've had artists promise the world and fail to deliver one drawing in 3 months. We've had artists run off with copyrighted material and publicly post material despite an NDA agreement. We've had artists make up insane excuses which were outright lies. I even had one artist who promised to do all sorts of art only to find out that he doesn't actually draw anything, he just puts backgrounds on other peoples' work!    

The idea behind the Back In Print Project was gather a few online friends and talents and produce new material we can share and use with our 2E games. I'm not concerned about copyright issues. We're not selling anything and we have the disclaimers, yadda yadda. This is a personal project and therefore beyond WOTC to go after. Beyond that it would not be worth their time or money to bother me over it. It's just a few friends sharing their material with other online friends.

Second, it's a labor of love. Everyone on the project - the writers, cartographers, proof readers, researchers, etc - are doing it for fun, not for profit. Only artists have ever demanded money. Why is that? Seems to me that many artists believe that their artistic/drawing talent is inherently more worthy than the talents of a good writer or cartographer, which is bullshit. The writing and the cartography have garnered high praise when given to some pretty spectacular people out there for review (including some big name ex-TSR people who shall remain unnamed at this point). So I'm sure we're on the right track. And clearly it's very upsetting when artists demand payment when no one else is getting paid. It's also unfair and ridiculous. The thing is, we've found fans who are excited about writing, cartography, layouts, research, etc. and who are excited just to be having fun doing this. We cannot, however, find a dependable artist who is actually excited about it, which is ideally what we want. Why artists seem to be the only people who can't seem to be excited about a free project and who demand payment is beyond me, but it makes me question their way of being. Obviously my posts at BIP do not reflect my view of "all" artists, just artistic ability in general, since the vast majority of artists I've had to deal with have been flakes. And I've noticed that the better the artist, the nicer they are. It's the amateur ones who have exalted opinions of themselves.

We do have an ex-TSR artist doing some work for it, for free! But being a pro, he's too busy to do more even for commission. But again, that's so generous coming from someone so talented, while those who have little talent want their payment delivered on a silver platter. It's disturbing, frankly.

The forums (the public forums) aren't very busy since there are few members and many of them are busy trying to survive in this crashed economy. Some of us work 3 jobs now. But the private development forum is busy because we're continually working on it, and everyone there is having fun. So no, I am not a nightmare to work with, though I do expect everyone working on it to do their best. And of course all of us are indeed doing our best because we love it and we're proud of it.

I'm not asking for the world on a silver platter. Just an artist who wants to participate in a fantastic, fun project and who wants to get paid (if indeed the participation is not enough reward). I know that over at DF (where there is obviously no love for me and vice versa), a couple of old enemies went ballistic because one of my fellow developers there spelled out precisely what we want. That's not being rude, it's communicating clearly so that there are no misunderstandings. We're not interested in dabblers who can't produce, or who aren't excited. We want someone who's going to have fun and enjoy doing this. It clearly makes no sense to bring on an artist who will waste our time and tire of the project because he was never really into it in the first place.

And for the record, I have been extremely nice towards the several artists who let us down, despite their being flakes. No nasty fallings-out. Just a friendly "well, I hope things work out for you" when they flaked out. So where Jaybird's venom and fury come from is beyond me, but perhaps he has issues or something, or maybe he was told to bring in the hellfire from the goofy powers that be at DF.

Finally, bamajon1974, I just got you signed up. Welcome aboard and it's good to see you. Sorry you had to witness a flare up from some old enemies, but we're used to that. I chalk it up to jealousy and people not being able to let go of ancient grudges.  

Halaster Blackcloak wrote:A bit of background it needed for some balance here, since Jaybird seems to have a personal vendetta against me even though for the life of me I cannot recall ever having any sort of problems between us. Maybe it's a Dragonsfoot thing.  

Actually there is not a lot of DF crossover here....

We've had artists promise the world and fail to deliver one drawing in 3 months. We've had artists run off with copyrighted material and publicly post material despite an NDA agreement. We've had artists make up insane excuses which were outright lies. I even had one artist who promised to do all sorts of art only to find out that he doesn't actually draw anything, he just puts backgrounds on other peoples' work!    

You wanted free artists, you got flakes.  I think there is a lesson in there somewhere.

We cannot, however, find a dependable artist who is actually excited about it, which is ideally what we want. Why artists seem to be the only people who can't seem to be excited about a free project and who demand payment is beyond me, but it makes me question their way of being.

Exactly, you can't expect them to be as excited as you are. It seems you are looking for a needle in a haystack trying to find someone who feels just like you do about such a personal project.  Why not just publish as is? I'm sure it would garner a lot of interest without artwork.

Mike B.

Oh, and for the record, Jaybird, I cannot for the life of me recall us ever having words, arguing, or even debating anything! Last I recall talking to you, you offered to do some art and at the time we weren't going to pay anyone. We were still hoping to find an artist excited to just be part of the fun. Last I recall talking to you, it was very amicable and friendly. And I have never personally slandered you or ripped on you or said anything bad about you. I'm not sure where you got that idea. As far as I'm aware, there is not and never has been a problem between us, or any animosity whatsoever. So I truly am puzzled by all this.

The utter irony of all this? I was actually looking up your email address shortly after I posted my original post here, because I was considering asking you to do art and how much you would charge. It boggles the mind, it really does. Maybe we're meant to not have art in this release.