As some of you may know, I have a large sized color scanner/printer/copier.
(Prints up to 40 inch by 100 feet using roll feed paper)

Just out of curiosity (mostly) using that scanner I just scanned and saved (TIFF format) the three maps for the Box Set of Empire of the Petal Throne (First Edition).

I then printed one of the maps onto bright white plotter paper and it came out OK but not as good as the original.
You can easily read every smallest detail on the copy, but it is not smotth and bright (glossy) like the original is.

Then I printed that same map onto Glossy Photo Film....

  ..........WOWSERS............  

Awesome looking map.

I then scanned and printed to Photo Film the other two maps.

I plan to bring them with me to show the guys at the Acaeum First Annual Bar-B-Cue on Saturday.

serleran wrote:But how much to buy one? Hehe. Naw, that's very cool. I wish I had one of those plotter printers.

Copyright laws would eat me alive for selling prints without permission from the copyright owners.
That would be WOTCO now I believe.
I feel quite certain they would not approve.

I have burned two CD's with the three TIFF files too......
..........Sweet..........

They aint for sale either though................
That would be illegal.

It's technically illegal even to make copies that you don't plan to distribute. Unless you've been given specific permission to make copies or reproduce material, making reproductions of any kind is technically illegal.

mbassoc2003 wrote:What type of scanner is that? Is it roll fed or what?

Umnnn... yes,

The original is placed at the top of the scanner layout section which sits over the actual plotter (But is not a part of the plotter). The scanner has a dedicated computer to run the software for the scanner and plotter both. Once the scanner has lokced onto the original, it will atomatically pull the original into the scanner body and out the other side. The scanner scans the image as it slowly goes throuigh the scanner, and then once the scan is complete it rolls it back out to where it started. A gentle pull will then release the original to your hands.

Once the scanner completes the scan it gives you a preliminary look at the scan (on the dedicated computer monitor) and then the program gives you several choices. Save to file, copy, or re-scan for better image.

As I said, the printer is a seperate machine, though the two are made by the same company (HP) and were made to work together. The printer uses EITHER a single sheet OR a long roll of paper and so yes, it is a roll fed plotter.

Busman wrote:It's technically illegal even to make copies that you don't plan to distribute. Unless you've been given specific permission to make copies or reproduce material, making reproductions of any kind is technically illegal.

Umnnn   .... copies?
umnnnn   ....   reproductions?

I am amazingly unconcerned.
Technically speaking.

Please Research further into the copyright laws...
Hint: look under "limitations and exceptions" and under "User Rights" and also under "Fair Use".

You might wish to set aside some time though..................

Additionally, actual infringment of the copyright would be most difficult to prove in this case.

Speaking of which, you may want to bone up on the deeper meaning of the term Copyright Infringement as well.

You might wish to set aside some more time for that one also ..................

The Empire of the Petal Trone Box Set has been out of Print for some time now (Decades?). That certainly indicates that WotCo/TSR no longer has any stake whatsoever for profit in that game, since they have not continued to publish the set. And even if they had continued to publish that box set, they still have nothing to protect against my PERSONAL FAIR USE and the fact that I am NOT selling any maps from that box set also continues to help my case for fair use.

Furthermore, making copies of the out of print maps for my own personal use does not in any way infringe upon any of the many other profit areas of the evil empire that is WotCo/TSR.

We; as a modern electronic and mostly computerized society in general (and not just in the USA either) are in fact encouraged to make back up copies of many sorts of games and far more commonly.... computer programs...........
Have you ever made back up copies of computer games?
Same thing I did only in a print format.

Those maps are 35 years old and were folded almost all of that time too. And so I have made back up copies of the maps. And being in the map making business myself, I know how maps can break down over time and I want to preserve those original game maps for future research and for my continued enjoyment of the game.

But I do welcome more comment........

Bill Owen wrote:
Thanks first to Aneoth for trying this scanning and passing on the results!

Re copyright law, I suppose the key word is "technical". I would think there are 4 considerations:

1. Whether the 1970's item is even still in copyright; could have been renewed. Might not have been.

2. Fair use provision does allow people to make personal-use-only copies (and Aneoth was not offering them for sale).

3. It's arguable that if an item is out of print and the nominal owner is not protecting his copyright actively, then it could be pretty moot.

4. But then I'm not a lawyer but I've spent more on legal opinions (and will continue to do so with my software/subscription) than I prefer to think about. And glad to have my wagon fixed by 3 hit dice lawyer specialists reading this.

Thank you sir.....
Best Regards, Aneoth
The unrepentant one.

Aneoth wrote:Please Research further into the copyright laws...

I love that you assume I haven't.

Aneoth wrote:Hint: look under "limitations and exceptions" and under "User Rights" and also under "Fair Use".

You might wish to set aside some time though..................

Fair Use is limited to very specific things, none of which are, "I wanted to make a copy for myself". Specifically they are: "criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research"

Let me know which you consider your personal reproductions to be.

Aneoth wrote:Additionally, actual infringment of the copyright would be most difficult to prove in this case.

Speaking of which, you may want to bone up on the deeper meaning of the term Copyright Infringement as well.

You might wish to set aside some more time for that one also ..................

I'll quote the VERY FIRST (I like shouting too!) protection for you:

"...the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to...
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;"

Just to make it perfectly clear, they specifically keep that as separate from:

"(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;"

Making copies is the exclusive right of the copyright owner, AS IS distributing copies.

Aneoth wrote:The Empire of the Petal Trone Box Set has been out of Print for some time now (Decades?). That certainly indicates that WotCo/TSR no longer has any stake whatsoever for profit in that game, since they have not continued to publish the set. And even if they had continued to publish that box set, they still have nothing to protect against my PERSONAL FAIR USE and the fact that I am NOT selling any maps from that box set also continues to help my case for fair use.

You continue to use Fair Use incorrectly, you might want to read THE ACTUAL LAWS (it's fun to shout, isn't it?) themselves. And it doesn't really matter how long it's been out of use. There is no need to "defend" a copyright. It's copyrighted material. A reproduction of it is illegal, technically. Works prior to 1978, which this is, did need to apply for the longer term that was enacted later, but even if they hadn't, it would have still been 70 years after initial publication (I may be wrong on the 70 years, the whole Disney work for hire thing muddied it up in my memory, but it's still many many years from now. Oh PS, you should devote some time to looking up "Work for Hire" under copyright laws.)

Aneoth wrote:Furthermore, making copies of the out of print maps for my own personal use does not in any way infringe upon any of the many other profit areas of the evil empire that is WotCo/TSR.

Though damages would be minimal, too minimal for Hasbro to care, there could technically be damages. And their being "the evil empire" isn't an excuse to steal from them.

Aneoth wrote:We; as a modern electronic and mostly computerized society in general (and not just in the USA either) are in fact encouraged to make back up copies of many sorts of games and far more commonly.... computer programs...........
Have you ever made back up copies of computer games?
Same thing I did only in a print format.

The computer games exception is a very specific exception made for computer programs. This does not automatically convert those rights over to print. In fact, that this right is explicitly carved out for computer programs should allow you to see that this is normally a right reserved for all other copyright works.

To use your own brilliant words, "and being in the [computer program] making business myself, I know [about these things]."

Aneoth wrote:Those maps are 35 years old and were folded almost all of that time too. And so I have made back up copies of the maps. And being in the map making business myself, I know how maps can break down over time and I want to preserve those original game maps for future research and for my continued enjoyment of the game.

Research. Keep using that one. It's the one Dad's DND uses as well. And it's a good one, no doubt.

Aneoth wrote:But I do welcome more comment........

In summary, your distribution of your research copies would be no more illegal than your original creation of them. If they truly are for research, then reproducing and distributing them (well the portions relevant and needed for the research) would be protected by (the proper definition) of "Fair Use".

Of course, all of this is moot, as no one is going to give a crap that some uptight, ignorant, self-important map maker is making a personal reproduction of a map that was published 33 years ago.

If I've come across too harshly please let me know, or did you not mean to sound like a complete egotistical ass who had only read Wikipedia in your response to me? Maybe I should have put the obligatory ";)" after the multiple use of the word "technically" in my initial response. Maybe you were hoping I hadn't actually looked into this and would be wowed by how sure of yourself you thought you sounded.

I'm ready to return to civil discourse whenever you'd like. But I enjoy the shouting, condescending and arguing too; it reminds me of when I was 14 years old and got my first 300 baud modem. I used to log on to BBS's all over and just have lovely discourse with lots of wrongly opinionated people. I guess the little boy in me is still happy to get out on occasion (or many occasions, as the case may be).

I plan to teach the grandkids how to play RPG's (More specifically Fantasy RPG's) and I have stated that many times on this very forum.

BTW: the use of the word further in that comment of mine which you so excitedly pointed out was made assuming you had done some already. (Research that is).

As you so passionately though loosely point out… words have meaning and ignoring that does not help matters for your case any more than it would for mine.

Though damages would be minimal, too minimal for Hasbro to care, there could technically be damages. And their being "the evil empire" isn't an excuse to steal from them.

OMG. Please sir..... Explain to my dim witted self exactly what it is that I am stealing?

No need to analyze your post any further (there goes that word again) since it was intended to disparage me with an already ancient argument. Law. I fully admit that I know less than any lawyer about law. And likely less than you even. And yes I got some of what I wrote from wikipedia (in order to speed this up, since I didn't wish to spend weeks on this and my calling was not in law.

Lawyers on both sides of every argument known to mankind have ALWAYS made efforts to continue every one those arguments and many times simply for the sake of the argument itself (IMO). Many of them would be happy to argue all day for weeks, or months or even decades on any subject. I do not intend to get into that with you or anyone else since I am not a lawyer. Do I know all there is to know about copyright laws? No and there are few who do. Those who say they do are at that point useless.

One thing that I am quite surprised about is that you seem to think that I care (Or more likely should care?) about this subject enough to be worried that HASBRO, or more particularly WotCo/TSR will come after me with a heard of 12th level lawyers because I printed a back up copy of the maps for my own use in playing a fantasy game. An out-of-print Role Playing Game.

Obviously I am too ignorant to know I should be worried as I remain amazingly unrepentant about this and unfazed by your dissertation.

Wow....another thread turned into a copyright infringement argument.  You would think that with the six thousand or so threads already devoted to this topic people would be tired of talking about it by now.  I guess not.  

Aneoth:  Since you welcome more comment....you are coming off like an egotistical ass whether you meant to or not...just so you are aware.
Busman:  Doesnt mean you have to act in a similar fashion.

When I get home from work I think am going to make a copy of one of my numerous illegal .pdf's and distribute it to all of the illegal aliens looking for work at the bus station down the street.  Maybe I will go over the speed limit on the way there too.  I might tear up a dollar bill or put a dog turd in my mailbox as well.  

deimos3428 wrote:Is the dog turd bit really illegal?  I mean, unless you didn't affix correct postage or something, wouldn't they have to mail it?

In Canada, it would become The Queen's Royal Dog Turd while in transit...

I'm sure someone would think it was illegal...probably my postal carrier.     But since I am not a lawyer I couldnt begin to tell you if putting a dog turd in a mailbox was a federal offense or not.  Probably only if there was mail in it at the time the turd was placed in the box....otherwise it is probably just frowned upon.  And they would still have to catch me doing it in order to prosecute.