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Post Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:20 pm 
 

I'm realizing there are lots and lots of things I lack to do justice to my traveling museum idea, but I am working on it, one small step at a time. The general idea is to have as much historically significant RPG items together as possible, with the primary focus on Gary Gygax and TSR, naturally. To this end, I was wondering if there are any unpublished/pre-published items that are possible to locate. For example, I have Unhallowed and Hall of Many Panes, and some stuff on Castle Zagyg as well (though I am very confident this would not be included as I do not have permission to do so.)

Would you find these interesting? Or, just "meh?"

What would be more appropriate?


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Post Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm 
 

serleran wrote:I'm realizing there are lots and lots of things I lack to do justice to my traveling museum idea, but I am working on it, one small step at a time. The general idea is to have as much historically significant RPG items together as possible, with the primary focus on Gary Gygax and TSR, naturally. To this end, I was wondering if there are any unpublished/pre-published items that are possible to locate. For example, I have Unhallowed and Hall of Many Panes, and some stuff on Castle Zagyg as well (though I am very confident this would not be included as I do not have permission to do so.)

Would you find these interesting? Or, just "meh?"

What would be more appropriate?


EGG had stuff published in a lot of wargame journals in the 70s. I'd hunt that down if you could, including letters he wrote. Also, take a look for El Conquistador fanzine with the unpublished Castle Greyhawk story "Expedition into the Black Reservoir" (pretty much nearly impossible to find but there are a couple out there).  From what Gary has said when talking about that article, he wrote these type of stories all the time to promote the brand new D&D game; maybe other undiscovered stories are out there in obscure fanzines waiting to be found?

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Post Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:16 pm 
 

This is what I wondered about when I began collecting. Castles Greyhawk & Blackmoor were immediate mysteries, as the first supplements bearing these names didn't have much on the settings. World of GH had plenty to say about the world, not much about the city or castle.

Arneson's First Fantasy Campaign filled in a few holes. So did his 80s Blackmoor modules, although too much time had passed to give a clear picture of its earlier form. But it wasn't until Gygax had left TSR that the City of GH took published form. Evidently he did not want it published -why?

Perhaps significantly, TSR didn't get around to it until the entire campaign setting was being phased out in the early 90s. WotC has followed that tradition by recently publishing a Castle GH hardback at the end of 3e & of the current GH line.

What magical quality is there to those legendary catacombs which makes them the sanctum sanctorum, always the final mystery to be uncovered? The question has remained on my mind over the decades. To uncover its secrets would be like finding the philosophers stone of RPG collecting.

The original World of GH is easier to find- the Outdoor Survival board. Arneson says in FFC that "we went south" to the OS board after blowing up Blackmoor. The 1980 WoGH map has Blackmoor & the Duchy of Ten in its northern regions, & the whole thing sort of resembles OS.

The coastline is a distorted Asia, an alternate reality where the Indian subcontinent never made its fateful collision. The City of GH is Babylon. Herodotus, whom I understand is the hack who wrote the movie novelization tie-in to Frank Miller's 300, described it as dominated by the ruined hulk of its ziggaraut.

I kind of suspect there was no single Castle GH. Gygax used it as the dungeon for so many promotional games early on with so many people, that it had a million forms he didn't even keep track of.

  


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Post Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:02 pm 
 

sauromatian wrote:I kind of suspect there was no single Castle GH. Gygax used it as the dungeon for so many promotional games early on with so many people, that it had a million forms he didn't even keep track of.


All of my research indicates otherwise, sauromatian:  the Castle was a single, monolithic dungeon---and while it was primarily the creation of EGG and RJK, it was not only their work, since they included materials drawn from many other hands over time....


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Post Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:41 pm 
 

sauromatian wrote:World of GH had plenty to say about the world, not much about the city or castle... it wasn't until Gygax had left TSR that the City of GH took published form. Evidently he did not want it published -why?


Because the original Greyhawk wasn't a roleplaying setting. It was a location within a fantasy miniatures campaign, the communal interface for various games played by the LGTSA and C&CS.

We played similar campaigns later, in the early '80s at TSR, via interoffice envelope. One of the larger ones was Napoleonics. Gary and I were France, and we had various interactions (role playing of a sort) with other countries and their rulers. Dan Matheson was Russia, iirc, and Dr. Don Snow was the Pope.

But in the original fantasy campaign, Gary was both playing in and adjudicating a lively play-by-post game that worked much the same way. Major miniatures battles were fought in person, on sand tables, when folks could get together. Blackmoor was another kingdom of that world. The overall continent evolved into Oerid.

The City of Greyhawk was a later development, originally being but a location (albeit a capital). As such it was never fleshed out all that thoroughly... notes on certain locations and notorious personnel, a sketch map of great brevity, and otherwise quite loose. That is doubtless why Gary didn't publish it; it had never been completed.

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Post Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:20 am 
 

The unpublished stuff is hard to find of course.  Of the published, some of the ephemera is interesting from a Greyhawk perspective.

Of the mildly obscure, I'd recommend:
* The Hunter character class
* The Garrison Ernst Greyhawk stories in the earliest Dragon magazines; not great writing but lots of intriguing bits
* The Sagard the Barbarian books, some Greyhawk snippets and often forgotten
* The Castles & Crusades skill system (somewhat alluded to as being an example of how he wanted non-weapon proficiencies to be in AD&D)
* The special encounters written into the original Dungeon Geomorphs
* The AD&D Coloring Album

I also have an ongoing project where I grabbed every single AD&D quote I could find, from ENWorld, Dragonsfoot, the Yahoo group, the interviews, stories told by convention goers who played OD&D with him as DM, etc. and came up with a very interesting "AD&D1.5" as a result.  That includes alternate experience rules, monster hit dice beyond d8, level descriptions of the Greyhawk dungeon, somewhat conflicting explanations of the Elder Elemental God and the unwritten Gygaxian Q1, hints at the Jester / Mountebank / Savant, extensively detailed definitions of each alignment, descriptions of hundreds of Greyhawk NPCs and monster origins, etc., etc.  Originally I was creating it as a tribute to the man but now I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it ... due to copyright issues it's largely unpublishable and is basically just "My Gygaxian D&D."  Oh well.

  


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Post Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:57 am 
 

grodog wrote: the Castle was a single, monolithic dungeon---... they included materials drawn from many other hands over time....


Then we can agree that it was always changing in the sense of expanding, with stuff being added. Or as The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures describes Castle GH, "not less than two new levels under construction at any given time."

The question is, how much existing parts were revised, & how rapidly. Could the entrance have been altered when he presented it to different groups of players? Could it have been geomorphic?

From what I've heard, others have speculated that the Dungeon Geomorphs were Castle GH, but EGG denied it. Could parts of the Castle  nevertheless be in a similar format, with a given set of map pages connectable in different ways for a new game?

The Magic Mirror & Dungeonland modules depict the Castle as being mutable in other ways. With a few portals to other dimensions added here & there, mayhaps showing up in varying locations depending on the will of the gods, one monolithic level could become many.

  


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Post Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:22 am 
 

darkseraphim wrote:I also have an ongoing project where I grabbed every single AD&D quote I could find, from ENWorld, Dragonsfoot, the Yahoo group, the interviews, stories told by convention goers who played OD&D with him as DM, etc. and came up with a very interesting "AD&D1.5" as a result.  That includes alternate experience rules, monster hit dice beyond d8, level descriptions of the Greyhawk dungeon, somewhat conflicting explanations of the Elder Elemental God and the unwritten Gygaxian Q1, hints at the Jester / Mountebank / Savant, extensively detailed definitions of each alignment, descriptions of hundreds of Greyhawk NPCs and monster origins, etc., etc.  Originally I was creating it as a tribute to the man but now I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it ... due to copyright issues it's largely unpublishable and is basically just "My Gygaxian D&D."  Oh well.

It would be great if you set up a web page where we could read it though.

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Post Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 1:54 pm 
 

kevin mayle wrote:It would be great if you set up a web page where we could read it though.


Sure, I hope to do that in the future, but it's pretty messy and colossal.  :)

For now though I wouldn't mind pasting some of my info on Castle Greyhawk, since I know lots of people still find that fascinating.  Any errors in the below are likely caused by a transcription fault on my part or too much unification of diverse posts.  This is not complete, but it's what I have so far.  Have fun Grodog, heheh …

Gygax's original Greyhawk dungeon was about 13 levels deep with about 28 levels total, mostly side levels.  Rob's material was roughly equivalent and added to the whole.  The resulting complex ended up being 25 levels deep and about 50 levels total.  (Another comment states 28 levels deep and 40+ levels total.)  There are also split levels; for example, two unattached areas occupying the same sheet of graph paper, reached from two or more different locations.

In lore, it was created by Zagyg the Mad Archmage.  It was once filled with riches, but was heavily plundered be Tenser, Robilar, Terik, Murlynd, etc.  In later years the deep, recovering wealth was largely untouched while many minor adventuring groups explored and depleted the upper levels.  The dungeon is kept "stocked" through the machinations of Zagyg.  Some feel that he is more interested in observing adventurers than in having a secure stronghold; the conflict between the monsters and the heroes intrigues him.

The Castle rests on a 250' tall hill, three miles north of the Free City of Greyhawk.  It is surrounded by tangled vegetation.  A swamp lies past the northern slope.

Play in the dungeon began in late 1972.  I believe it initially consisted of 4 levels, although other comments imply that only the ruins and level 1 were designed and the other levels were created later to keep ahead of the players.  The first adventurers ever were Ernie Gygax, playing a figher, and Elsie Gygax, playing a cleric.  Their first encounter (in the upper ruins?) was a giant centipede.

The upper ruins are sparsely detailed, but are known to include giant centipedes and goblins, with a high possibility of visits from the kobolds of dungeon level 1.

Level 1, possibly "the Barracks" or "the Vaults," was revised many times.  Its final revision, the 3rd, was done on a 17"x22" sheet.  Assuming the classic 10' scale and 4 squares to an inch, it was probably about 680' along the narrow axis and 880' "long."  Level 1 is a moderate challenge for 3rd level characters.  However, the Old Guard Kobolds are intended to be a test of whether the players are smart enough to flee, and can challenge characters of 5th-6th level.  At one time, level 1 was mostly cleared and used as a base by Robilar, Tenser and Terik.
Entrances include:  A secret staircase used by an orc leader.  A dry cistern.  A pool of quicksand.  A hole in the ground.  Several others.
Exits include:  Several, leading down one or more levels.  An 80' long stairway (probably going down more than 1 level).  A shorter stairway to level 2.
Monsters include:  Bandits (level 2 fighters with a level 4 leader); berserkers; ghouls; brigands (possibly dwelling in the ruins above, this is unclear); giant (cave) bats; a (giant?) black widow spider; a giant bombardier beetle; nests of giant centipedes (such as under chests etc.); giant rats enthralled by a human keeper; (giant?) snakes; a giant spider; gnolls led by an evil priest; goblin slavers (likely allied with the kobolds, and they are also in the ruins above); a huge subterranean constrictor snake; the legendary Old Guard Kobolds (some roughly equivalent to orcs in strength) in two complexes; a level 3 magic-user with (humanoid?) guards; orcs; skeletons.  The kobolds are the masters of most of the level.
Traps include:  A solitary transporter (teleporter) to mess with mappers.  Open pits.
Treasures include:  10 +1 arrows; +1 axe; thousands of copper pieces; +1 dagger; 8 100 gp gems; +1 plate armor; potions of healing; +1 ring of protection; +1 shield; staff (of the serpent?); +1 sword; various potions.

There were orcs in the dungeon, at least on level 1, and probably at least levels 1-3.  They are of two tribes, the Grinning Skull and the Bloody Axe.

Level 2, possibly "the Storerooms," was apparently created the day after the first session.  It was first explored by Ernie (fighter?), Elise (cleric?), Rob Kuntz (playing Robilar) and Don Kaye (playing Murlynd).  It is considered an adequate challenge for 4th level characters.
Monsters include:  A gelatinous cube; a giant lizard; gnolls; orcs serving a human warrior; a troll.
Traps include:  Hidden and covered pits, some spiked.  A magic pool of serpents.
Treasures include:  +2 dagger; staff of the serpent; wand of paralysis.

Level 3, possibly "the Cells," may be the lair of some thouls who are allied with the kobolds.  It is assumed to be geared for level 4-5 characters.  A group of (2nd level?) characters once adventured on level 3 and lost no members, but this was likely exceptional.
Encounters include:  A magical laboratory in the center; gnoll archers and their leader, Obmi.

Level 4, possibly "the Torture Chambers," is occupied by a band of gnolls.
Treasures include:  A portable hole.

Level 4 or 5 may be home to the Old Guard Trolls, possible allies of the kobolds.  The level is estimated from the challenge scheme of the dungeon.

Level 5 is probably called "the Maze."

Level 6 is known as the Labyrinth, which may imply even more complexity than level 5.
Monsters include:  A black pudding; minotaurs; a purple worm; wereboars.
Level 6 is also home to a pair of black dragons, who wrought much mayhem in the classic campaign.

Level 7 is probably "the Crypts."

Level 8 is probably "the Arena."

Level 9 is probably "the Lesser Caves."

Level 10 is probably "the Greater Caves."

Level 11 is probably "the Caverns."

A deep level has a museum of artifacts from lost ages.

A deep level (12 or so?) has an intersection leading to dungeon regions known as Monkeying Around, Horsing Around and Fooling Around.  Monkeying Around leads to the Isle of the Ape.  Horsing Around leads to a centaur level, which is probably a side-level and not an alternate prime.  Fooling Around was specifically left as a secret, but was probably pun-based, as encounters included a jester with assistant jack puddings.

Level 13 of Gygax's original dungeon was Zagyg's domain.  A giant, one-way slide (teleporter?) leads to the Land of Chin, opposite the Flanaess on the globe.  It is equivalent to China.  Whether the domain was moved to the bottom-most level (25?  28?) after the super-dungeon was created is unclear.

Keep in mind that level delineations may have shifted dramatically following the merger with Rob's levels.

Due to its progenitor (Zagyg), the dungeon is constantly changing, and it intersects with many of the planes, including alternate primes.  Zagyg can make the impossible possible within his limited domain.  He may briefly appear to adventurers; to favor or challenge them.

Planar areas attached to the dungeon include Courland (EX1), the Land Beyond the Magic Mirror (EX2), the Isle of the Ape (WG6) and others, totaling approximately 6 areas reached by teleporter.  Two of these were apparently never discovered.

A land of Greek mythology can be reached from a deep level; whether or not this is an alternate prime is unknown.

Alternate primes that can be reached from the dungeons include the Starship Warden of Metamorphosis Alpha and Jack Vance's Planet of Adventure.  There is also A Midsummer Night's Nightmare, featuring Oberon, Puck, Titania, booka, killmoulis, dark sidhe, and other English faerie folk.  An underwater gate leads to an underwater adventure (planar?) that is dominated by a dragon turtle.  The Mars of John Carter fame can likely be reached as well.

Well-known areas in the dungeons include the Machine Level, the Living Room, the Garden of the Plant Master, the Realm of Thought, the labyrinth of the Lords of Balance and the Black Reservoir.

Famous features include the Bottle City, the Great Stone Face, the Nixie Pool, the prisons of the "nine gods," and the Disappearing Jeweled Man.

In the Gord novels, the castle (due to its nature) is the final place of magical resistance against the incursions of Tharizdun.  It is destroyed with the rest of Oerth, but likely returned into existence by the recreation of the Flanaess in an alternate dimension.

Now if you don't have a mad urge to scurry off and recreate Castle Greyhawk, well … you've spent too much time quibbling over Benjamins and you need to get back to the spirit of the game.  ;)

  


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Post Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:13 pm 
 

Thanks for typing all of that, darkseraphim!
I appreciate it.

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Post Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:17 pm 
 

yes a most superb summary - now you have to be crazy if that doesnt spark a campaign writing effort :)


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Post Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:28 pm 
 

darkseraphim wrote:For now though I wouldn't mind pasting some of my info on Castle Greyhawk, since I know lots of people still find that fascinating.  Any errors in the below are likely caused by a transcription fault on my part or too much unification of diverse posts.  This is not complete, but it's what I have so far.  Have fun Grodog, heheh …

Excellent post, thanks. :) I'd guess Allan is asking a few questions, now.

darkseraphim wrote:A land of Greek mythology can be reached from a deep level; whether or not this is an alternate prime is unknown.

"self-contained demi-plane"

darkseraphim wrote:Level 13 of Gygax's original dungeon was Zagyg's domain.  A giant, one-way slide (teleporter?) leads to the Land of Chin, opposite the Flanaess on the globe.  It is equivalent to China.  Whether the domain was moved to the bottom-most level (25?  28?) after the super-dungeon was created is unclear.

Keep in mind that level delineations may have shifted dramatically following the merger with Rob's levels.

aside: No clues from ERK (only the later upper level reuse for Ramshorn Castle is provided, then erased) although interleaving and ditching the superfluous upper works would seem to make sense: ERK more-or-less mirrors the layout through to lower caves/caverns and the encounters are similarly ramped up from what's left of the text and annotations.

Intriguingly, the lowest numbered level of ERK has a one-way transporter to China and a large, non-natural cavern with a vaguely hawk-shaped delineation. Go figure?

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Post Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:38 pm 
 

Oooh good stuff. Thanks!

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Post Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:02 am 
 

darkseraphim wrote:Well-known areas in the dungeons include the Machine Level, the Living Room, the Garden of the Plant Master, the Realm of Thought, the labyrinth of the Lords of Balance and the Black Reservoir.

Fantastic stuff!
Any more info on these?


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Post Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:28 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Fantastic stuff!
Any more info on these?


Hi, most of the material is a compilation of the bajillion questions that fans asked Gary online.  It doesn't tap into modules or sourcebooks as much since I've yet to delve into the paper side of the equation.

But here's what I recall:

* The Machine Level was designed by Rob, Gygax adventured there.  Jim Ward gave some details in Dragon #17.

* The Garden was designed by Rob and was apparently both a stand-alone and also a Greyhawk level in smaller format.  Some details on released versions:
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9211.phtml

* The Realm of Thought and the Lords of Balance are featured in the Gord books.  There is a brief online summary here:
http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/greyhawk.html

* The Black Resevoir was rediscovered by Grodog and Badmike, I believe, and is published here:
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh ... voir1.html

Greyhawk Castle is basically the Frost Giant's Daughter.  You can't catch her, but you can definitely snag her slip if you try hard enough and behold her in all her glory for about 2 seconds.   :lol:

  

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Post Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 7:25 pm 
 

Very nice thread. :)

If the sort of adventuring material that darkseraphim cites in the above posts is intriguing to folks here, then I encourage you to check out Castle Zagyg, Vol. II: The Upper Works. I think you will be amused, if not pleasantly surprised by what is spot-on true, what has been tweaked/expanded, etc.  

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Post Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:54 pm 
 

What is Castle Greyhawk? Is it a place that can be visited, or is it a state of mind only attainable to the enlightened? It is all of these things & more, young grasshopper.

  

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Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:28 am 
 

sauromatian wrote:What is Castle Greyhawk? Is it a place that can be visited, or is it a state of mind only attainable to the enlightened? It is all of these things & more, young grasshopper.


8O  :lol:


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