According to Playing at the World (p477) Warriors of Mars was developed by TSR at the request of a miniatures manufacturer (then Hinchliffe/Minifigs).

If anyone here knows, I would be very interested to learn when development of MoW began--especially if it was prior to the publication of Dungeons & Dragons (which I suspect it must have been) and if so, how much so?

waysoftheearth wrote in Warriors of Mars development?:According to Playing at the World (p477) Warriors of Mars was developed by TSR at the request of a miniatures manufacturer (then Hinchliffe/Minifigs).

If anyone here knows, I would be very interested to learn when development of MoW began--especially if it was prior to the publication of Dungeons & Dragons (which I suspect it must have been) and if so, how much so?

Well, I wouldn't say this was "according to PatW" so much as "according to the introduction to the Warriors of Mars" booklet, which PatW happens to cite. PatW does identify that firm as Hinchliffe (soon to be Heritage), which WoM does not, thanks to the ample record-keeping available for the 1974 GenCon.

That much said, I think it's doubtful that development of the rules began meaningfully before D&D was published, for a few reasons. Most importantly, D&D does not mention WoM as a forthcoming title in the catalog at the back of the first edition (it does allude to the far later Star Probe and Boot Hill, as well as several aborted titles - those all were in development before D&D). Also, TSR did not have an initial relationship with Hinchliffe at the time D&D was released - they partnered with Scruby for fantasy figures. So it seems more likely that Hinchliffe effectively commissioned a set of rules to accompany their planned miniatures - not a uncommon marketing strategy for miniature firms at the time - and gave the work to TSR on the strength of the success of Chainmail/D&D, and of course the fact that D&D contained some Barsoom rules. Early D&D ads explicitly reference Barsoom. The WoM rules themselves are largely derivative of prior titles, in a way that may suggest the work was hastily cobbled together.

But I'll poke around a bit and see if there's anything more concrete that isn't immediately coming to mind.

Thanks for the information guys.

Great observation that WoM doesn't appear in the products catalog at the back of OD&D.  

Since OD&D printing began around January(?) '74, and WoM was printed around July(?) '74, that would imply WoM had at most six months in development.  On the other hand, WoM appears--at least to the casual eye--to be quite nicely done in terms of editing/layout, perhaps implying a longer development?  The rules themselves appear nearer to Chainmail than to D&D, perhaps implying a pre-D&D development?

It would be fantastic if Rob Kuntz remembers when the play testing occurred, although perhaps play testing would have been late in the development?

In any case, I'm not sure D&D could have been a major influence on Hinchliffe's decision to approach TSR for the project since--six months prior to July '74 (if this is indeed the print date for MoW)--there could only have been a few hundred copies of D&D in existence. Perhaps Hinchliffe foresaw what was coming in D&D, but Chainmail had already been doing well for a few years in any case.

increment wrote in Warriors of Mars development?:I think it's doubtful that development of the rules began meaningfully before D&D was published, for a few reasons. Most importantly, D&D does not mention WoM as a forthcoming title in the catalog at the back of the first edition (it does allude to the far later Star Probe and Boot Hill, as well as several aborted titles - those all were in development before D&D).

I checked the back of the 1st print OD&D, and found on the last page of M&M in the product listings it has this:

MINIATURE FIGURES -- A complete line of Scrubby miniatures, including Fantasy and N Gauge: Minimum Order $10

MANY NEW RULES BOOKLETS -- To be released at approximately three-month intervals.
   Space Wargame Rules

There's no mention of Star Probe, or Boot Hill. The only games mentioned by name are CAVALIERS and ROUNDHEADS, and TRICOLOR.

The list of MANY NEW RULES BOOKLETS (five in fact), includes Wild West Campaign Rules and Space Wargame Rules.  It's not explicit what these are, but it seems plausible that they could have been Boothill and Warriors of Mars.

In the 3rd print the last page of M&M in the product listings it has this:

WARRIORS OF MARS -- The Warfare of Barsoom in Miniature $5.00

It also lists STAR PROBE (but still no BOOT HILL), so it's ambiguous whether the Space Wargame Rules mentioned in the 1st print refer to Star Probe or Warriors of Mars, or both or neither!  

Worthwhile noting, perhaps, that Star Probe was developed in '72 by John Snider and the Midwest Military Simulation Association, so it seems likely it would have been known as Star Probe by '74, but that's doesn't mean TSR was at liberty to name it in the OD&D 1st print.  But was TSR already planning to buy and publish Star Probe before even the 1st print of OD&D (i.e., in late '73)?  And if so, would it have taken all of '74 and into '75 for it to happen?  And would Star Probe fairly be described as a "wargame"? (I haven't read it, but I understood SP to be more of a space exploration board game?)

The 4th print's catalog appears to be exactly identical to the 3rd.

By the 5th print WARRIORS OF MARS has been deleted.


I don't have access to a 2nd print, but if someone here does have a copy, it would be great to know whether it lists MoW, and/or SP, and/or Space Wargame Rules at the back of M&M.


If the "Space Wargame Rules" named in the 1st print refers to a yet-to-be-named-WoM then this would imply that MoW was in development prior to OD&D being in print, and that it was sufficiently well developed to be mentioned--but not yet complete (or offically named!)--as OD&D went to press in Jan '74.

increment wrote in Warriors of Mars development?:Unless we assume that Hinchliffe, say, reached out to Gygax and asked him to do the project before the TSR partnership was formed

This is, in my mind, still the real question.  When was the WoM commission taken on?  Given that the commission was about selling a new line of miniatures, and Chainmail was a miniatures game doing well, I don't think it's unreasonable that Hinchliffe might have approached EGG prior to TSR.  I'm not saying it happened that way, I'm merely suggesting that it shouldn't be ruled out completely--unless someone knows something more definitive on the matter?

As for Blume's contribution [pure speculation] it's not impossible that he could have been brought onto the project when TSR was formed with a view to finishing something that EGG had started earlier.[/pure speculation]  I don't know; which is why i'm fishing for information here

Melnibonean wrote in Warriors of Mars development?:The 2nd Printing of OD&D has Warriors of Mars and Star Probe both listed on the last page of the Men & Magic booklet there is no mention of Space Wargame Rules.

Thanks Melnibonean, good to know.

So the Space Wargame Rules listed in the OD&D 1st print could still refer to either WoM or SP.

It becomes kinda important to know more about Star Probe, it seems.  Does anyone know when TSR acquired it?

--

On whether SP would be have been described as Space Wargame Rules, the respective subtitles/blurbs ascribed to WoM and SP in the TSR catalog are:

WARRIORS OF MARS -- The Warfare of Barsoom in Miniature
STAR PROBE -- The Game of Adventure, Exploration, and Conflict in Space

Would be great to hear from someone who has played Star Probe... is it a wargame?  (per the 1974 use of the term)

Hi, these are tangents but there's a thread where the early Snider campaign is briefly discussed.  (See Greg Svenson reply)
The Sci Fi game (Star Empires) | Original D&D Discussion

Also a brief mention by Dave Arneson here:
Star Probe (1974) and Star Empires (1977) | Original D&D Discussion

Apparently there's another brief mention of Star Probe in Panzerfaust #68 but I don't have access to that.

In Different Worlds #5, on page 21, John Snider talks about the development of the rules that became Star Probe and Star Empires.  Greg Svenson and Dave Megarry are mentioned as participants in the campaign.  There's a couple of pages of play notes.  I don't know if either Greg or Dave would remember hearing about John's early dealings with TSR though.

Thanks for the additional information guys; all great input on a fascinating period of TSR history.

I don't doubt that Increment's accounting is near the mark, it only seems curious (to me) that there should be almost two years between TSR announcing its "Space Wargame Rules" (that catalog entry must have been written in late '73 or early Jan '74), and TSR eventually publishing Star Probe (Sept '75).

Could it have taken TSR nearly two years to publish a pre-existing game while they were in a period of proactively expanding their product catalog?

darkseraphim wrote in Warriors of Mars development?:In Different Worlds #5, on page 21, John Snider talks about the development of the rules that became Star Probe and Star Empires.

Great find Darkseraphim; are there any specific dates given in the article?  When was DW#5 published?

waysoftheearth wrote in Warriors of Mars development?:Great find Darkseraphim; are there any specific dates given in the article?  When was DW#5 published?

Hi, Different Worlds #5 (bimonthly) is dated Oct/Nov 1979.  The article begins by discussing John Snider's misadventures in the Blackmoor campaign c. 1972.  The transition to the Star Probe section is literally "From playing in these games, it is just one small step to running one.  At the time I was running an interstellar game that eventually turned into the rules [for] Star Empires."  And that's it.

The play reports are entertaining but aside from some glimpses of the 3rd supplement that never came out (John was apparently still hoping that TSR would publish it in early 1980), there are no insights into the early play test time period.  Sorry!

So all the evidence suggests that WoM was indeed put together entirely post OD&D's release, in the first half of '74.

Thanks for the contributions guys; some great insights