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D&D and the need for more diversity
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Post Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:13 pm 
 

This should make for a lively thread.

boingboing.net/2012/04/11/call-for-dive ... -rule.html

And the original article from tor.com

tor.com/blogs/2012/04/a-modest-proposal ... nd-dragons

That is all.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:39 pm 
 

I think most people create in their own image.  So I dont wonder why there arent more dark skinned characters in fantasy artwork, because most of the people who do fantasy artwork seem to be white.  Sounds logical to me anyway.  :shaking2:

Oh and whoever created Drow were obviously racist.  Evil, black skinned elves.  No-brainer.  :lol:


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:48 pm 
 

Part of the allure of the genre (for me at least when I was kid) was that none of this **** mattered.  Not to say that as a group of 11 to 17 year olds or whatever that we were socially conscious and going out of our way to play different ethnicities.  It just didnt register and no one cared.

My playing group back then consisted of mostly asian-american kids as I grew up on military bases in the Philiphines and Japan.  We had a couple girls at several points, we switched game systems regularly (Top Secret // SI was a long running favorite), and the only difference in color as far as any of us was concerned was how many sided dice corresponded to what color (all the 4-sided always seemed to be yellow or green - go figure).

While I get why some people might get bent out of shape, I really can't bring myself to care here.  In fact, I wan't to do the opposite of care, and tell the people bringing this up to STFU and stop polluting a relatively innocent hobby with thier social / political bull****.  When I read a good book, I get (mostly) the ability to interpret and mold character image to a mental picture I can relate to.  Artist interpretation is largely the same.  Accept it for what it is and leave me to my own damn imagination.  Thanks.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:56 pm 
 

I haven't done any market research.  Are African Americans writing or reading fantasy literature these days?  Do they buy books?  Is there an African American fantasy literature tradition?

I suspect that most fantasy art is directed at caucasians because most of the customers are...gasp...caucasians.

One thing I do know:  Non-European RPG settings do not sell well in comparison to straight up depictions of medieval fantasy Europe. Cover art that depicts (for instance) an Arabian Nights theme is a good way to doom your publication to a niche of a niche market.

I suspect that gamers are relatively diverse in their cultural interests and slightly more up on world history (or at least how various cultures kill each other) than the average person.  But, a part of the enjoyment of a tabletop RPG is to project yourself into a character with whom you identify in some way.  The 6'5" 350lb guys who like to play female elf princesses or cross-dressing Chinese  parapalegics are the exceptions rather than the rule.

It strikes me that instead of a forced and artificial racial diversity in game art, building a world background and map that makes diversity logical is a better step.

For some time, I had a couple of guys in my group who were African Americans.  I did notice that they preferred to play black characters...and I invented a game world cultural back story to make this happen.  Specifically, I revised the World of Greyhawk's Hepmonaland into a high culture African setting and invented black pirates who called themselves the "Karvon" in order to explain the presence of black characters in the Flanaes.   Morgram, the exiled Karvon prince, went back to claim his birthright.  This even turned into a pretty cool series of adventures in the Ashanti capitol of Bhamoboro deep in the N'doki Forest.  The players still talk about the time they paralyzed those carniverous apes, making them fall out of their tree and through a blade barrier spell....the liche-haunted city of Ophir...and that giant, frickin' crocodile that the druid took on in animal form.

As for the blogger:  It isn't a huge deal, but I get annoyed with writers who do not know their craft.  If you don't understand a cliche' metaphor, don't use it.  In this case, it isn't a "tricky wicket."  Rather, it is a "sticky wicket":   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_wicket

Is it so hot you could lay an egg on the sidewalk?  Is it a pigment of your imagination?  Will this adventure be a piece of pie?  Are you planning to argue, or will you hold your piece?  Will you crash over that bridge when you come to it?  Do you wish you could be a fly in the ointment for that conversation?  Do you live in a doggie dog world?  

It's as jarring as a people who cannot hold there liquor, or people who find out there car is missing or the people who think there so cool because their wealthy.

Also, while I'm ranting, the author says the 3rd Edition rulebook wasn't diverse enough....when the book was so PC it was hard to read.  I am referring to the nifty idea that mixing in male and female pronouns willy nilly is somehow going to feel welcoming and inclusive and therefore attract female players to the game.  This isn't clever English.  It is bad English.  The goal of a rulebook is...above all...clarity.


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:10 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:Also, while I'm ranting, the author says the 3rd Edition rulebook wasn't diverse enough....when the book was so PC it was hard to read.  I am referring to the nifty idea that mixing in male and female pronouns willy nilly is somehow going to feel welcoming and inclusive and therefore attract female players to the game.  This isn't clever English.  It is bad English.  The goal of a rulebook is...above all...clarity.


I had the exact same reaction the 3rd edition rules (which I returned to the store). Interestingly enough I read on one of the 'Old Guard' threads at DF (Jim Ward's Q&A?) that there was some attempt at that same use of female pronouns as far back as the eighties.

I just wish politics would stay out of my hobby. I hate politics and I was a longtime employee of politicians.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:16 pm 
 

Oh...and I forgot to mention the morons who think their quarterback just threw a "shuttle" pass instead of a "shovel" pass.  But, it sounds like the morons are winning  that particular language battle.

"Are you inferring...?"

"No, moron, I am implying.  You are inferring."


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:42 am 
 

Nogrod wrote:This should make for a lively thread.

boingboing.net/2012/04/11/call-for-dive ... -rule.html

And the original article from tor.com

tor.com/blogs/2012/04/a-modest-proposal ... nd-dragons

That is all.

Nogrod


The original article is so stupidly written as to be almost incomprehensible.  

There is an interesting argument here somewhere, but Knode has not captured it with the poorly written, sloppily research, and obviously pedantic pile of shit he scribbled.

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:22 am 
 

I can relate to the original article in this way: I too prefer to play Characters who are just like me.
Slim, well muscled, excellent swordsmen/bowmen, long pointed ears... with hair on top of the head as well as the sides... such as Elves.
Yup that's it, PCs just like me. :lol:
As for the color of the skin, that is just surface poop and has never been a concern for me as a player.
Gold, Blue, Wild, Sea (OK, not so much that), Drow (Yes they are still elves)

At least Hasbro/WotCo is in good company.
The Green Lantern is apparently a racist too (Cartoon at bottom of second link page).

BTW: Agree with above, where the heck did those idiots learn to write?


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:55 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:I haven't done any market research.  Are African Americans writing or reading fantasy literature these days?  Do they buy books?  Is there an African American fantasy literature tradition?


Quit trying to inject realities such as "marketing" into the equation.

The entire argument about diversity in a game that includes elves and dwarves is so reductively stupid, brain cells actually fell out of my head when I was reading their idiotic arguments.  

BTW, I think that "The View" should have at least two men at the table, "NFL today" needs a housewife and a female gymnastic coach next to the boys, and the next chop socky flick I watch better have a white Wood elf in the lead or I'm raising holy hell.

Folks, this is why "political correctness" has become a term of derision (even as some desperately defend it's use).

Both articles about this subject perfectly display how deeply our culture failed in training kids to use their own brains and imaginations.  If it's not explicitly spelled out, today's gamers do not have the brain power to imagine a fantasy world as diverse as the one in which we live.  It's really an insult to gamers and the gamer culture, which is one of the most accepting of any group I have ever belonged to in my life.

I especially like the arguments that there are not enough gay or lesbian characters depicted in fantasy gaming.  What?  YOU MEAN YOU CAN TELL SOMEONE IS GAY BY HOW THEY LOOK?  Please, this is insulting and sad.  For all we know, the two guys climbing up the idol on the cover of the original PHB were sharing a sleeping bag, do they really have to have Judy Garland CDs dangling form their belts to prove their orientation (oh, look what I did, I stereotyped based on appearance!). Besides, it was no secret to any of us who gamed back in the day that Burne and Rufus were a "committed" couple, and it didn't bother us a bit.  :wink:

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:23 am 
 

African American is an absurd PC term as well.
Far as I know very few (a few hundred... perhaps a thousand) black Americans came directly from Africa.
All the others were from some other country or were born in the USA.
I wonder how many Haitians, Porto Ricans and Cubans who live in the USA use the term African American to others when referencing themselves?


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Last edited by Gnat the Beggar on Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:26 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:The 6'5" 350lb guys who like to play female elf princesses or cross-dressing Chinese  parapalegics are the exceptions rather than the rule.


But they're often the best players.  It takes creativity and imagination to pull that off.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:56 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:Also, while I'm ranting...


Good rant  :D

For me, the best essay lamenting lazy, tired and inaccurate writing, remains Orwell's "Politics and the English Language."  Written in 1946, sadly, most of what it criticizes is still commonplace.

http://wikilivres.info/wiki/Politics_an ... h_Language


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:54 pm 
 

Al-Qadim:  Arabian
Kara-Tur:  Oriental
Mahasarpa:  Asian
Maztica:  Meso-American
Rokugan:  Asian

C1:  Meso-American
FR3:  Arabian etc.
FR10:  Egyptian, Mesopotamian
I3-5:  Egyptian
X1, X8:  African (arguably)
X4-5:  Middle Eastern

Deities & Demigods ...

Tekumel ...

Plus all of the cultural expansions in Dragon magazine throughout the decades ...

Here's just a few from a quick search of the word "Africa":

Mythos of Africa in Dungeons & Dragons (The Dragon 27)
Gaming the Dark Continent (Dragon 122)
Out of Africa (Dragon 122)
Arms & Armor of Africa (Dragon 189)
An African Genesis (Dragon 191)
Real Warriors Ride Elephants (Dragon 195)
Magic From the Gods (Dragon 200)
Mythic Races of Africa (Dragon 202)
The Priests of Africa (Dragon 209)
The Deities of Africa (Dragon 215)

Etc., etc.

Maybe instead of calling for diversity, they should dig a little deeper into the history of Dungeons & Dragons and the fiction that inspired it.   :roll:

  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:06 pm 
 

Gnat the Beggar wrote:The Green Lantern is apparently a racist too.

That particular comic was written in 1970 not long after the Civil Rights Movement "ended".  Hal Jordan (Green Lantern) isnt racist, he is just indifferent.  And of course he's "whitey" so he is obviously working for "The Man".  They touch more on racism about a year later in this issue:

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/20 ... n-lantern/

John Stewart was stereotyped big time as an arrogant, angry black man through the 70's and 80's.  Later on his arrogance gets the best of him and a planet is destroyed along with its indigenous population because he thinks he can handle anything without help from others.

But I'm getting off topic.

Gnat the Beggar wrote:I wonder how many Haitians, Porto Ricans and Cubans who live in the USA use the term African American to others when referencing themselves?

I would expect a sum total of zero.  I mentioned earlier in another thread that the majority of people of Latin descent are extremely proud of their specific culture and where they came from.  Most Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Mexicans etc. dont like to be lumped under the same umbrella.  They each have very distinct differences.  I dont see why any of them would consider themselves African American.

Badmike wrote:Besides, it was no secret to any of us who gamed back in the day that Burne and Rufus were a "committed" couple, and it didn't bother us a bit.

Bromance maybe...but couple?!?  :lol:   And now you're gonna tell me Eclavdra and Nedylene were a more than just Eilserv pals eh?  :roll:


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:12 pm 
 

darkseraphim wrote:Al-Qadim:  Arabian
Kara-Tur:  Oriental
Mahasarpa:  Asian
Maztica:  Meso-American
Rokugan:  Asian

C1:  Meso-American
FR3:  Arabian etc.
FR10:  Egyptian, Mesopotamian
I3-5:  Egyptian
X1, X8:  African (arguably)
X4-5:  Middle Eastern

Deities & Demigods ...

Tekumel ...

Plus all of the cultural expansions in Dragon magazine throughout the decades ...

Here's just a few from a quick search of the word "Africa":

Mythos of Africa in Dungeons & Dragons (The Dragon 27)
Gaming the Dark Continent (Dragon 122)
Out of Africa (Dragon 122)
Arms & Armor of Africa (Dragon 189)
An African Genesis (Dragon 191)
Real Warriors Ride Elephants (Dragon 195)
Magic From the Gods (Dragon 200)
Mythic Races of Africa (Dragon 202)
The Priests of Africa (Dragon 209)
The Deities of Africa (Dragon 215)

This post strikes me as too factual. Can you include some emotionally loaded terminology for us?

  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:22 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Besides, it was no secret to any of us who gamed back in the day that Burne and Rufus were a "committed" couple, and it didn't bother us a bit.  :wink:

Mike B.


The guys I wondered about were Zeligar and Rogahn.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:34 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:
Badmike wrote:Besides, it was no secret to any of us who gamed back in the day that Burne and Rufus were a "committed" couple, and it didn't bother us a bit.  :wink:

Mike B.


The guys I wondered about were Zeligar and Rogahn.


I liked those names back then but now they sound like hair-loss creams.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:16 pm 
 

Gnat the Beggar wrote:African American is an absurd PC term as well.
Far as I know very few (a few hundred... perhaps a thousand) black Americans came directly from Africa.
All the others were from some other country or were born in the USA.
I wonder how many Haitians, Porto Ricans and Cubans who live in the USA use the term African American to others when referencing themselves?


There were 4 million slaves of African descent here in the Deep South at the start of the Civil War.
That's about 44% of the South's population in 1860.

So, I think "African-American" is an accurate description of a large culture within American society.
The black people I work with tend to refer to themselves as black or African-American.
But they do draw a clear distinction between themselves and white people, or between themselves and Hispanics.  

Likewise, German-Americans, Irish-Americans, etc., were terms used to describe those ethnic groups.
And many of them will use their heritage when describing themselves.  

English-Americans are "regular Americans" according to Archie Bunker.


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