Okay, this is keeping me awake. Why did I have to think about this so early in the AM?

Got to thinking about the endpapers in the core books in regards to why some early prints have color sheets and some few have white. Can't believe I didn't think of this before. Well okay, knowing me, I CAN believe it.  

Being around the print world for 20 years in various guises, one picks up a few things. Most of my time was in pre-press, doing computer graphics for math books, laying out flats, checking negatives, cutting amberlith, food label layout/design, etc. I even got to run an old stat camera for about a year. But as said, you learn a bit about what comes after. Granted, I didn't pay much attention to what I was not directly involved in, but some things seeped through the mental blockage anyway.

Frank seems to have some knowhow of the procedure, and maybe he or Tim may have some insight on the way things ran back then between TSR and Random House. Perhaps they can chime in.

It's not unusual for pressmen to allow for sub-par sheets to come out of the press, so it's common practice to run more than the job requires. 10% more seems to be the norm. So, an order for 10,000 books will see enough paper for 11, 000. The other 1,000 usually hits the garbage due to poor ink coverage or other flaws which will happen. But it's rarely an all-or-nothing, so a fair amount of the overage of each flat may be usable.

As to the paper stock used for endpapers, white seems the industry norm. It is likely the color stocks are only purchased by the printer when needed from a paper house, and do not keep cases lying about waiting for someone to MAYBE use them one day. Leftovers are a separate issue. When I was still employed at my last job, we could order paper from the distributor, and see it the vast majority of the time the next day. I think it likely Random House worked the same way. They didn't keep the colored paper in house, but ordered when TSR put in their order with RH. Storage of all the different colors and weights possible would take a great deal of space otherwise put to better use. TSR would definitely let RH know beforehand when they were sending material and the quantity (for pricing purposes and such), so there would be ample time for RH to order the paper. And, they would only order enough boxes to cover the requirements of the job. Again as with the printed flats, with some to spare in case of misfortune.

So, we have our 10,000 (or whatever) books all printed and everything is just ducky. Looking through our overrun material, we discover we have enough good or good-enough flats and covers and such to get another 85 acceptable books.

Oh, wait. We only have enough yellow paper for the endpages and flyleaves for 22 of these. That's fine, use the standard white for the rest. TSR won't pay us for an extra box of red/orange paper so we can assemble a few overrun books.

The possibility exists that the "X print with white endpages" are in fact overrun books, and not a separate printing. Being a 'proof print' or 'pre-print' or some such would make no sense, as you would want to see the final result and not some sort of costly mock-up. Also, the press would not be held in stasis for several days while such books were shipped and examined. It would be used, removing the plates for the TSR books and basically invalidating any settings used. Once begun, it's only being stopped for a press check, or if there is a problem.

There would be no reason I can think of to assemble a short run with (likely cheaper) endpages, then run the bulk of the job with more expensive paper. It would also not be practical nor cost-effective to just run a few hundred copies at a time.

This might possibly be confirmed by checking the pages of these 'whiteys'. Do they have pages which seem like the type is overly light or washed out? Are there ink blotches or a discernible ink 'line'? Is the type on one flat  offset from the rest of the book? Such pages would normally be tossed if caught, but if not excessively bad, might be used as a last resort. My 'white' 5th DMG does have a few pages with light ink coverage.

IF this postulation is correct, then what does that mean for current print listings?

MM: the 4th Gamma is an overrun copy for the 4th Beta. This is the simple one.

PHB: HERESY! The 'True 1st print' is actually the overrun of the 1st print. Well, it IS still more rare, just not as sexy.

DMG: The DMG has some issues. The 4th print could possibly be an overrun of the 3rd Alpha. Obviously, if there were 50,000 printed, then it is it's own printing. Such a classification would leave a gap in the printing sequence, but I am told there is ongoing debate on this area as it is, so we'll see how that shakes out. The 6th Beta and Gamma are overruns of the 6th Alpha. They just had different amounts of perfed reference sheets and survey forms available. No surprise there. Overruns don't come in perfect quantities.

I am overthinking this waaaay too much.

Now that I've vented, I needs me some shut eye. I'm getting kinda  

> PHB: HERESY! The 'True 1st print' is actually the overrun of the 1st print. Well, it IS still more rare, just not as sexy.

Not for that one, anyhow. All the proven-early copies ("first box"/signed at Gencon/first distribution to retailers) are white flyleaf.
It would also appear that a few of these made it across to the UK, too.

faro wrote:> PHB: HERESY! The 'True 1st print' is actually the overrun of the 1st print. Well, it IS still more rare, just not as sexy.

Not for that one, anyhow. All the proven-early copies ("first box"/signed at Gencon/first distribution to retailers) are white flyleaf.

Just about to say the same myself.  The TSR staff t-1st PHB I had was white-fly as well.  I don't buy the argument for the PHB, so why would it apply for the others?

TheHistorian wrote:I think disgust/acceptance at this idea is going to split along the lines of whether or not one has these variations (or has them on a want list) or not.

Fortunately, I got rid of my "whitey" 1st PHBs and now have only yellows.

Edit:  ...one of which has the name "Schick" inscribed on one of said flyleaves   .

Pipswich wrote:...  there would be only 1 in six odds of grabbing the pallet with white endpapers first.

Random encounters are a bitch.  

Pipswich wrote:Also re: ink... the ink on every white endpaper copy I have is fine.

Entirely possible for overruns. Not every one would have flaws.

Pipswich wrote:Then there is the matter of the scarring on the back of the "first box" copies.  That makes sense to put up with if you are trying to get them out in a hurry to meet immediate demand and your customer ok's it or you don't notice it.  It makes less sense for a printer to try to slide them in at the end of a print run and get caught swapping endpapers and trying to sell scarred copies.  It wasn't good business for the printer, in either event.

Returns on scarred books would be a call for the customer. I don't think any hiding of bad copies was involved. They printed the quantity, shipped to TSR, and the scarred copies were rejected (a bit late it seems). It would have been smart for the printer to inform ahead of time, but who really knows how the event took place?

Pipswich wrote:But, also, where is the financial incentive for the printer to increase the quantity of the first run from 10,000 to 10,000+?  Was the second print ordered before the first print delivered? Would they deliver them before order and payment?  Or take a flier on printing them and holding for a reorder.  Because if they took a flier... wouldn't the hypothetical overprint be part of the second batch delivery to TSR?  And, we know there were white endpapers in the first batch delivery...  do we know there are other endpaper varieties in that delivery?

Not familiar on the pricing structure of overruns. Where I last worked, the press was designed around small runs, so there weren't many overruns. They didn't charge if there were a few extras. RH, however, is a different thing. One thing though, larger quantities of books get reductions in the price per book as the number ordered goes up. For example (using fictional numbers), after a certain number, the price goes to 90% per book, then after the next bracket is reached, the price goes to 80%, etc. until some minimum is reached.

Interesting. Any clue as to why the change in flyleaf after the first batch or so? One of those, "Hey. Wouldn't this be a neat thing to do." moments? Swapping paper out due to running out of stock happens, but it seems a decision was made somewhere in this case.

It also seems from what you are saying that TSR got a batch, then the rest were sent directly to distributors, correct? Might explain how the scarred DMGs got missed.

Kaskoid wrote:Anything after 1980 I can't comment on.

I believe it was Reagan who first said this...

bombadil wrote:
I believe it was Reagan who first said this...

Fair Warning!
If you ever again compare me to Ronnie Rayguns, I will be, most unfortunately, compelled to kill you. No simple bullet in the back of the head stuff, but a long, excruciatingly painful ordeal in which you will beg for release.

My reference was to the fact that I left TSR physically at that time. Ronnie seemed to be drifting some days, even when he was ostensibly "here".

SimperingToad wrote:Would suck that the paper arrived just as that process began, but still possible.

That's why you should always have paper supplied for D&D books handled by a salesman who appreciates the fine aspects of medieval weaponry. I recommend Mr. Shrute.