faro wrote:No click on yours, John?

Heh... sorry; just a little happy to have resolved an outstanding issue with a seller who pulled their sales last time when they decided they weren't going well enough (despite having done a few hundred pounds of business with them and stating there were serious snipes in place -- no particular choice, either, since I was in hospital during the auctions) and failed totally to communicate either then or since.

Clickable smileys....what will they think of next?      Glad your issue got sorted and glad you are out of the hospital as well.  

How do you post a clickable smiley?  

Kingofpain89 wrote:http://www.detnews.com/article/20091212 ... est-scores

Parents want educators jailed over low test scores and lawsuits against the schools because their kids are stupid?  Sue the schools that already dont have enough money to pay their teachers....that makes perfect sense.  

King,
Welcome to the Detriot attitude of social justice. The fault is spread out to everyone except the parents and students. DPS is a complete nightmare. The city of Detroit is a complete wasteland of public welfare. I know we do not like to get too political on this site, but Detroit has been run by the Democrat machine forever and look at the result. Complete destruction and a populace that is so heavily dependent on welfare that it has no ability to recover. We take our kids to the occassional Lions or Tigers game and they are so freaked out by the urban decay we have prep them before we go. You want to see the result of social planning, come to Detriot.

Kingofpain89 wrote:http://www.detnews.com/article/20091212 ... est-scores

Parents want educators jailed over low test scores and lawsuits against the schools because their kids are stupid?  Sue the schools that already dont have enough money to pay their teachers....that makes perfect sense.  

This is all too typical when groups like this are allowed near a microphone.

It does not help when people in actual positions of responsibility make irresponsible statements:

Detroit Public Schools Emergency Financial Manager Robert Bobb told the crowd the test scores weren't the result of children who were incompetent or parents who didn't care. He blamed the scores on the district not doing its job.

So here's his solution:

Bobb said he is going to announce a new reading initiative Monday in which he will be calling for 100,000 volunteer hours to help children with reading. Reading was one of the reasons cited for the low math scores.

According to the article, this suggestion was met with thunderous applause.  The audience apparently did not notice that his proposal is for them to work for free.  

He's a financial manager.  He isn't a teacher or a school administrator and I'm guessing he knows nothing about education.  100,000 volunteer hours...in other words, it's a "plan" pulled directly from his ass.  

But it's worse than that.  Pay attention:

Buckman also had harsh words for a group of teachers who are in favor of striking instead of approving a new contract that forces them to give up $500 per month or $250 per paycheck as an investment. The money will be given to the district to help plug a $219 million deficit, and it will be returned when they retire.

The teachers are bad people because they don't want to have $500 per month confiscated from their paychecks and given to the school district!  (That's $6,000 a year for those of you who went to school in Detroit.)

The people of Detroit won't pay for education, but these guys believe that the teachers can afford to pay for them.  Teachers who won't voluntarily drive themselves further below the poverty line are clearly not dedicated enough.  

The district promises to give them back the stolen money...when they retire.  Is the district planning to give it back with interest.?  Paid at 2009 values or at 2029 values?

Based just on the information in the article, how many here believe the stolen money will be returned at all, or in any just manner, without an extensive lawsuit by obviously disloyal teachers?

Given these circumstances, what is the likelihood that any teacher who can...and that means the best ones...will flee the Detroit Public Schools ASAP?  And, if you pay attention, you will later read how those teachers must be complete racists to do such a thing.

The next time someone here thinks of sounding off about crappy teachers who don't care...blah...blah...blah...you might consider the levels of insanity and flat-out unreality we have to deal with all the time.

FormCritic wrote:Here's a link to the pay schedule for Detroit teachers.

http://mi.aft.org/dft231/index.cfm?acti ... fccd4efdde

Click on the link for the PDF.

A starting teacher grosses $39,600.

That's slightly better than Washington State, but the cost of living in Detroit is much higher.

When you calculate net pay for that teacher (taxes and deductions for benefits), you discover that he/she probably brings in right around $2000 per month.

Now...cut that net pay by $500...which will be counted as income for tax purposes, but will actually be confiscated by the school district.

Then...consider that the school district contribution to teacher health insurance and retirement packages will also have been cut this year, and the cost of the benefits will have gone up!

Damn disloyal teachers!

Beautifbul post. My wife is a teacher and by the way we here way too many speak, you would think we live in a posh mansion and jet set the globe. Somehow, we missed that bus...

FormCritic wrote:
The next time someone here thinks of sounding off about crappy teachers who don't care...blah...blah...blah...you might consider the levels of insanity and flat-out unreality we have to deal with all the time.

Rarely do I disagree with nearly 100% of what a union does, but the Teacher's Union is one of them.  Even so, I support them striking if the idiotic and short sighted city of Detroit rathole tries to take money away from them.  These changes won't happen unless the Teacher's Union allows it to happen, so if $500 gets taken out of these teacher's paychecks, they have only their own to blame. It will mean the Teacher's Union cuts a deal with the devil, I hope that doesn't happen. Corrupt leadership shouldn't prosper while hard working teachers get screwed.

However, a lot of the problem is the bad pub teachers are getting now.  The Teacher's Union in DC fought tooth and nail with the new chancellor Michelle Rhee because she wanted to fire incompetent teachers, have pay for performance incentives, and prevent automatic tenure for long serving (but some worthless) teachers. The DC school system is near the bottom of all developed AND non-developed countries in test scores, yet they have battled her with a venomous fury.  Last article I read stated under her leadership the district's scores are already rising. She seems to be competent and dedicated, so she wont last very long.  

Well publicized fiascos like New York City's "rubber room" (where child molesting teachers can get paid for years and years merely by showing up each day) have only added to the "teachers get paid too much" voices now echoing through America.  It used to be "teachers don't make enough money" which was (and still is) true.  When will unionized teachers realize their incompetent and corrupt leadership is basically tilting the table away from support for all the teachers?  I bet a discussion asking for teachers to give back money would have never happened 20 years ago.  

I hate to throw politics out here, but there is a huge reason cities like Detroit, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, and Buffalo are losing population and industry every year to the south.  I read somewhere that Pittsburgh has lost population every Census since 1950. Meanwhile, states like Texas have prospered with Right to Work laws and less powerful unions. The Northeast better get it's priorities straight or they will be ghostowns in the next few decades.

Mike B.

faro wrote:This one?
=> http://www.pewcenteronthestates.org/ini ... veID=55888

Thanks!!!

Not the exact list I was thinking of (or maybe I mistook New Jersey for New York), and no cities, but I'll bookmark it.

And BTW, I am VERY happy Texas appears as one of the states "least like California".....

Mike B.

Badmike wrote:
However, a lot of the problem is the bad pub teachers are getting now.  The Teacher's Union in DC fought tooth and nail with the new chancellor Michelle Rhee because she wanted to fire incompetent teachers, have pay for performance incentives, and prevent automatic tenure for long serving (but some worthless) teachers. The DC school system is near the bottom of all developed AND non-developed countries in test scores, yet they have battled her with a venomous fury.  Last article I read stated under her leadership the district's scores are already rising. She seems to be competent and dedicated, so she wont last very long.  

Well publicized fiascos like New York City's "rubber room" (where child molesting teachers can get paid for years and years merely by showing up each day) have only added to the "teachers get paid too much" voices now echoing through America.  It used to be "teachers don't make enough money" which was (and still is) true.  When will unionized teachers realize their incompetent and corrupt leadership is basically tilting the table away from support for all the teachers?  I bet a discussion asking for teachers to give back money would have never happened 20 years ago.  

I hate to throw politics out here, but there is a huge reason cities like Detroit, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, and Buffalo are losing population and industry every year to the south.  I  read somewhere that Pittsburgh has lost population every Census since 1950.Meanwhile, states like Texas have prospered with Right to Work laws and less powerful unions. The Northeast better get it's priorities straight or they will be ghostowns in the next few decades.

Mike B.

Critical thinking, Dude!  

"fire incompetent teachers":  This happens already.  The question would be who decides which teacher is incompetent, and why.

"pay for performance incentives":  Who decides which teachers are performing well?  How will they decide?  If you dis-trust whiny liberals, just wait until they get control of merit pay!  Oh my God!

"prevent automatic tenure":  Teachers who are incompetent get fired before they get tenure.  All tenure does is make it just barely, maybe, slightly harder to fire a teacher.  (Essentially, you have to have cause, rather than just a whim.)

"the district's scores are rising":  Oh God.  Says who? How do they know?  What does "rising" mean?  Rising relative to what? Rising for how long?  Who is being counted?  How are they being counted? Who is counting them?  Take that with a massive grain of salt.

"The DC school system is near the bottom of all developed AND non-developed countries in test scores"  Exactly.  Could that be because DC itself is a community well below some non-developed countries in lots and lots of social problems?

"where child molesting teachers can get paid for years and years merely by showing up each day"  Read more carefully.  None of them are child molestors.  They are teachers who were accused of anything from sexual mis-conduct to small violations of policy.  It is the school district which is dragging its feet.  The reasons for that program are political, not educational.

"I  read somewhere that Pittsburgh has lost population every Census since 1950."  Which leads to the very obvious conclusion that long-term economic realities are shaping those cities...and causing the social problems that lead to poor school performance.  People point these realities out all the time.  But, if teachers point out that poor school performance is linked to long-term social problems, it is the teachers who are whiners?  If teachers decline to be held responsible for things that are completely out of their control, why does that make them automatically wrong?  Are the police responsible for crime?