Sooooooo....

Anyone else picked up 4E to give it a try?  (*ducking thrown 1E books*)

Mike B.

Zenfinite wrote:
I think it's just you and me Mike. Search up some of my previous posts to see my opinions on the matter.

As an aside, I truly believe that the level of RP is dictated by the players, not the rules set. THEY are the ones who lead the horse, so to speak. In my current game, the players got pissed off when I didn't have the NPCs in the Keep fleshed out with names, personalities, etc. So, I made the effort and fixed that part of my game. In the end, however, the stellar combats we've had have more than made up for my poor preparation in the Keep; at heart, my players love rolling dice and hacking bad guys. After all, to be honest, if you're not rolling dice, you're pretty much playing Cowboys and Indians....Cops and Robbers...you get the idea. RP is great, and at times, adds a TON to a game. But, the rules to the new system, or any D&D system for that matter, did not and do not affect your desire to RP.

That's just my opinion from 20 years of playing and DMing every edition of D&D except the white box version. Take it as you will.

Zenfinite

I agree totally. I reiterate I probably won't be playing 4E, as I didn't play 3/3.5 before it.  But it looks like fun if you enjoy a MINIATURE COMBAT oriented game. And you can add as much or as little roleplaying as you like, so go for it.  I truly don't believe one's roleplaying experience is any more or less valid dependent on edition.  We've heard the sky is falling before...I will say I'm a little taken aback by how little "buzz" 4E has created, but I think a LOT of that is WOTC's fault for cancelling all their periodicals, as well as messing up the GSL so that practically nobody is putting out 4E stuff.  It may be too late for them to make up lost sales and time also.

But as I said on another thread I think stuff like Pyramid of Shadows, very old school in tone and presentation, is a step in the right direction.

Mike B.

Bah, everyone knows the only TRUE miniature combat D&D game involves LEGO!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/ ... onshot.jpg

Invincible Overlord wrote:
They F'ed up Battlestar Galactica by making Starbuck into a chick...  

Cmon, Dirk Benedict couldn't act his way out of a paper bag...unless you consider his stint in "The A-Team" to be Emmy worthy  

Mike B.

well i was at my local library and there was a 4th ed. dmg, so i checked it out and well my quick synopsis is that it stinks. i would simply never see a reason to play it rather than 1e. but that`s not why i post. when i played d2 (circa 1981) we walked in, my ranger threw a hammer of thunderbolts at the statue of blibdoolpoolp. all hell broke loose, they all came a-running we slaughtered em all and looted the place at our leisure. and made vichyssoise out of the dead kuo-toans (okay i made that up). one first level follower of the ranger died, the cleric promptly raised him, our npc morale went up 50 points and we moved on to d3. it`s all true, just ask bracton (maybe he`ll tell the story of what happened in q1). i have gotten to be a good roleplayer in the 27 years since, but back then it was 1) crush your enemies 2) see them driven before you 3) hear the lamentation of de women

Good Luck Matthew

I'm now slowly reading through the DMG, but having read and played 3.x the rules are not that overwhelming to me.  It's all about playing though, whatever rules, you are playing D&D again and that's the point!

ShaneG.

Kingofpain89 wrote:
** expired/removed eBay auction **


Interesting that these 4th edition game day adventures are seeing an increase in price.  Kinda glad I grabbed one for $6 on a BIN a couple of months ago.

Dont know about this though:


** expired/removed eBay auction **


Seems a little optimistic there.

I think the last one a week ago went for $30ish

I will risk a little fuel on the fire and say that as one of the few "old school" 4E lovers who lurks here from time to time, I think two misconceptions keep popping up.  I will preface this by saying nothing, and I mean nothing, replaces 1st Edition or earlier D&D gaming systems.


1.  There is no roleplay in 4E.

2.  Old people, especially old school 1st Ed (or earlier) peeps wont like it.

There is a ton of roleplay in 4E and its supported, and you can remove the entire debate that is the skill challenge/check system if you want to (I kept it but have changed a number of things to accomodate a much more communicative approach than relying on dice entirely after we found the dice approach a bit too gamey about 6 or 7 sessions in).  Please take your least prized 1st Ed DMG out and whack the next person that says changing game rules or mechanics to suit your experience is a bad thing, tell them Mal said hello.


Im old, I love 4E.  Yes its combat centric.  Yes its miniature dependant (I would argue if you havent used miniatures since day 1 your actually working outside the rules as intended...but...that can be saved for another thread, and I would also argue its up to you to use them or not).  But us old people can love 4E too.

In combat it plays like a board game.  Outside of combat it plays like many if not all of the other D&D games you have played.  Its about telling the story, about taking a group of adventurers and having them craft a heroic tale of sorts, and the interaction between player and DM much the same as it has always been.

Yes its a bit of an advanced level at the start system but no it does not mean your character can not get one shot, I have seen it happen twice already.  Its not common by any means, but it can and does happen.  Death of players in any given combat is certainly present...its just not a "Oh crap I got hit, how much damage is it going to be!?!?!" kinda thing at first level.  Its more of a "Hey I need a heal over here!" then a "Some help now would be appreciated people!" to a "Ok I can now go grab that cup of coffee seeing as my warrior is lying in a pool of his own blood."  

Again...love 1st ed and before, had a brief love hate thing with 2nd ed, hated 3rd/3.5, and now love 4th ed.

But thats just me and my opinions, yours will most certainly vary.

Mal

serleran wrote:I saw a game played and it reminded me a lot of Hero Quest. That is not a detriment or compliment.

I can see why one might say that, and I respect your views Ser.  However, I think it really comes down to play style and your DM.  If the DM is a student of the mechanic and can adjust on the run during combat, once your players get to know their abilities and begin coordinating with each other, combat time is halved (easily)  and becomes very quick paced.  But there is definately a learning curve.

Our battles now are fast.  At the start of H1 we were sloooooow, 1 hour plus easy a battle, now its under a half hour and we are well into H2...which btw...is a decent module, tons of room for fleshy bits and I did a good bit of tweaking on the storyline that can really be spiced up with some minimal DM homework.  I cant wait for H3 though.

The best way to describe it is a very complex game of speed chess.  The only thing that bogs us down is the actual set up (map/drawing, miniatures, any extra encounter log I might have to do on the fly),  and roleplay during combat (which no one minds because those are usually the best parts).

Now I put the roleplay bit in bold for a reason.  I have seen three out of four gaming sessions now as a spectator where combat was way to dice heavy for my taste.  By that I mean the participants got way to bogged down in specifics (like I used to before the six second rule...thanks to members of this forum btw...talk about changing our game!!!)  It seemed like all they did was talk and think about what they were going to do and hold their hands on miniatures unwilling to release like a slow chess game, while considering all the options.  Then boom rolling dice and finding out if their well laid plans went good or bad.  While they all seemed to be having fun, it was more like a symphony than combat.  Everyone playing different notes and instruments in the hopes that it harmonized into something beautiful.

If your the kind of guy or gal who likes board games, then that type of play might suit you just fine, but its not really my D&D cup of tea....now if we were playing Stratego??!!  

With the advent of the six second rule we found that a few things happened.  First, players became much more aware of what other people were doing, and where they were on the mat, so they could react when it was their turn.  Second, it forced them all to memorize what they could and could not do instead of looking at character sheets.  Last but not least, it made combat very hectic and people started shouting (or I should say talk very fast and very loud)...which in an odd way actually made sense as I came up with the "In character" speech rule during the 6 seconds, so players would not table talk but react in form.

That darn rule should be in every edition as D&D RAW, period....in my humble opinion anyway.

So our combat board games turned into something much more akin to 1st edition than we had imagined.  In fact, we often comment outside of game that the only true differences are healing surges and character/monster survivability.  Those are just our experiences though, because like I said up front, its really about play style and your DM.

=)

Mal