Well, I went back and checked my Atlas of the Planet Earth, by The Onion, and this is what it has to say about the founding of the United States:

"The United States was founded in 1776 on the principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness at any cost - even life and liberty."

It says nothing about Christianity, but it does mention:

"America is a place where even the poorest immigrant can, through hard work and dedication, achieve the American Dream for his employer.

"It is a nation where freedom rings from coast to coast to coast, over and over again, until you finally decide to pick up the phone and agree to cover a coworker's night shift.

"America is a land of equality for all, and special, better equality for some...A nation where any determined individual can climb to the top of the corporate ladder and kick it down so that nobody else can."

Incidentally, under Canada, it says "For the United States, see pages 9-22".

jasonw1239 wrote:The founders were not necessarily all religious.

Agreed.  But, I do think you can make a pretty good case that America had plenty of Christian influences and leaders which could justify calling America a Christian country.

Personally, I think anytime you make "Christian" and adjective (Christian Car Dealership, Christian T-shirt, Christian Ministry), you usually cheapen Christianity more than enhance the thing it modifies.  I'm not against that because it is a useful adjective, but it works best with ideas and people (and that has problems too).

More pressing than history is our current state of affairs. I personally think America's culture shifts are becoming problematic.  Our increased interest in distractions like TV and sports, and our declining discipline in relationships, education and health care are just some examples.  Like the Roman empire, we are rotting from within.

While Christianity and "Christian" cultures have issues, they provide significant strengths.  There are certainly sensational examples of tragedies like the Jim Jones massacre, the Salem Witch trials, the crusades and more, but history also showcases spectacular civilizations in which Christianity played a significant role.  I came to this conclusion by determining that the best way to evaluate belief systems is not by their weaknesses but by their strengths.

I am not suggesting that the way to improve or fix America is by Christianity, per se, but I do think America is in increasing trouble, and I am most interested in helping to make the world, and America, a better place.  

mbassoc2003 wrote:"I think that would be an ecumenical matter."

Oh, go on...

(go on, go on, go on... )

Rabbit_67 wrote:
Since when?  

This country was founded by Christians who wanted a place where they could freely worship without persecution or the intrusion of government telling them how to worship.  The separation of church and state is mentioned nowhere in the Constitution.  This idea was established to keep the government out of religion, but not religion out of government.  

Our laws are based on Judeo-Christian teachings.  Church services were held in the Capitol building after it was first built and sessions of congress opened with prayer.  In the Rotunda of the Capitol are four paintings - two of prayer meetings, a Bible study, and a baptism.  References to God are also found at the Washington Monument, the Lincoln Memorial, the National Archives, Senate and House office buildings, the U.S. Supreme Court has the Ten Commandments engraved on the doors, the Jefferson Memorial and the Library of Congress also have references to God and scripture.(bronze statue of Moses holding the Ten Commandments, on the ceiling a painting called "Judea" which shows an Israeli woman raising her hands in prayer to God, and other quotes of scripture on the walls).  References to God are everywhere within the nation's capitol.

It is my understanding that the founding fathers were mostly Diest (sp?).  If you wish to worship God go-ahead.  If you wish to worship Allah go -ahead.  If you wish to worship Yahway (sp?) go-ahead.  If you wish to worship Satan go ahead.  If you wish to worship a rock go ahead.  Our country certainly has a major influence - that being christian.  That influence is why you have all the qoutes you mention above.  However, that influence does not define this country as a christian nation.


Please do not assign ownership to values.  Christians do not own values.  The values this country was founded on are simple core values that most humans subscribe to.

Martin

mbassoc2003 wrote:Politically sensetive question....

Has anyone ever sold D&D or Fantasy RPGs to someone of the muslim faith?

Yeah, interesting question, but how would you know?

I agree, it's good to see it discussed without casting down fire and brimstone...

Personally, I hold no truck with religion (not to say that it's wrong, but I won't have it thrust upon me, so each to their own) and see it as an argument over who has the best/biggest imaginary friend. However, what I do subscribe too is living life with principles and I have a very Buddhist outlook on life, based more on enlightenment, than faith.

bombadil wrote:
Yeah, interesting question, but how would you know?

It's just something I'd never thought about. Associated with my perceptions of the cultureal range of that demographic. Somehting that has come up recently, and a learning experience. For obvious reasons, when you question the relationship between a particular faith and anything else, it is inherrently 'sensitive'. I was just trying to ask the question to expland my own ignorance of the ethnic diversity of our hobby, without it being seen as bigotted or worse.

benjoshua wrote:I would think the D&D crowd, or RPG crowd, would be fairly diverse.  One typical commonality among role-players is their above average intelligence and creativity.  I have certainly met some un-intelligent rpg folks, but usually they are smart and some are scary smart.  People who are smart and creative are usually able to transfer their intelligence and creativity to all areas of their life, including the spiritual.  And that can lead to many different places and paths.

Well phrased, Ben.

benjoshua wrote:I would think the D&D crowd, or RPG crowd, would be fairly diverse.  One typical commonality among role-players is their above average intelligence and creativity.  I have certainly met some un-intelligent rpg folks, but usually they are smart and some are scary smart.  People who are smart and creative are usually able to transfer their intelligence and creativity to all areas of their life, including the spiritual.  And that can lead to many different places and paths.

This is what I was trying to explore. My upbringing (UK military kid, 70's & 80's) and my experience of RPG's in the UK (school, college, and as an adult going to minor con's etc.), have all painted a picture of a white western pass time. But people in the UK (outwith Central Londan which is very cosmopolitan) tend to be very insular, and the military of the 70's and 80's lacked any cultural diversity. The first non-white children I ever met were in an international school run by the American military (which for obvious reasons is very diverse). And it was the American kids that got ahold of D&D and introduced it to the British kids pre-Games Workshop.

So, I have had cause to question the the diversity of the RPG demographic in the UK, and my perceprtion of it, and why going to cons' etc in the UK tends to reinforce the perception that RPGs are a white phenomenon in the UK.

I presume American youth interaction is different, and as you say, given the intelligence and creativity of those attracted to RPGs, there is no reason to believe cultural mix would be anything other than an non-issue  to most gamers. It's just not something I've seen here in the UK. I hope in the US we see a greater level of diversity in the hobby. That said, looking at pictures from GenCon etc, you still see a sea of white faces. It's a shame. I wonder if there is something in the way different cultured bring up children, and undrerpin their educations with beliefs and values in there?