bclarkie wrote:Seriously Ian, you are one the first people to take offense to US sellers who won't ship abroad and yet now, you yourself are essentially considering doing this very same thing.  

No. I am raising the issues about there being no protection against people who start an eBay account to buy an item from someone immediately, and neither eBay nor PayPal being willing to either check out or take responsibility for the buyer. I was hit for an iPhone at the end of November, and in that situation it was a group of imigrants living in a bedsit in Reading, UK. This is not a US/UK thing. The only relevant issue here is that if I lose out £150, I can't get in my car and go to the address I shipped the product to, nor can I sue through small claims court, or contact the police. That applies to all countries, and very few fraudsters have 5 years experience and feedback in the thousands. The highest risk is the new account openned specifically for the purpose, and we should all be allowed to protect ourselves regardless of what country we live in.

bclarkie wrote:Also, stealing from thieves or stealing because others have stolen from you is still stealing and wrong and no amount of justifaction will ever change that.

I do not condone that sort of behaviour, but I am aware that it happens among some power sellers. I am also not exposed to the level of risk or loss of income that power sellers are, but I can see how some may justify it to themselves if they suffer such losses. That was my point.

The real question is this....

Would you ship a rare or expensive product to an eBay buyer who set his account up specifically for your purchase, and who didn't hold either a varified PayPal account or a tracable e-mail address?

And if you would, what do you do if they claim you sent them an empty box or a book on knitting?

mbassoc2003 wrote:I do not condone that sort of behaviour, but I am aware that it happens among some power sellers. I am also not exposed to the level of risk or loss of income that power sellers are, but I can see how some may justify it to themselves if they suffer such losses. That was my point.

The point is that if someone is stealing, no matter what their rationalization for it is, it's wrong.

mbassoc2003 wrote:The real question is this....

Would you ship a rare or expensive product to an eBay buyer who set his account up specifically for your purchase, and who didn't hold either a varified PayPal account or a tracable e-mail address?

And if you would, what do you do if they claim you sent them an empty box or a book on knitting?

I have in both occasions, so yes I would. All you can do is to protect yourself as best as possible and hope for the best.  All businesses assume a certain amount of risk, simply by being in business. It's one of the downfalls of being in business.

As to Ebay's hosesh*t rules, I agree 100% actually, you should be able to preset your own auctions and store listings to include or exclude anyone you want. It's your business, you should be able to dictate that 100% of the time. In other words, if you don't want to deal with people under X feedback number or from certain countries around the globe, I agree you should be able to set your listings up that way.  

With that in mind though, just because someone is new to Ebay and buys something does not automatically make them fraudsters or out to rip you off.  Everyone has to have their first purchase somewhere. That reason alone is likely why Ebay has its rules in place, because it doesn't want all sellers begging off under X feedback bidders, as that would be completely counterproductive and would likely completely ruin the marketplace for new users.   Granted, there could be plenty of ways a common ground could be found, i.e Powersellers could be made to not be alllowed to block X or lower feedback bidders in order to remain Powersellers and have the benefits of being one.   Of course, Ebay's unevenness and ham handedness in a vast majority of situations, where they seem to utterly refuse any kind of middle ground ever is why that will never happen, but it's a thought.  

Regardless, if you want to sell stuff, you are going to have to assume some sort of risk at points, no matter who you are dealing with.  There are plenty of 100+ feedback users out there who are just as big as thieves and morons as some new users are. Just take a look at people like that idiot scubabri420 that poor Mike had to deal with a few months ago or the psycho I had to deal with a year and half or so ago. They are out there everywhere.

mbassoc2003 wrote:
Bottom line... Fraud is fraud, and the person holding the account should be held responsible. If they write their passwords for their eBay and PayPal accounts on sticky notes and stick them on their monitor, they are still responsible. If they save them so their computer always remembers them, they are still responsible.

There is absolutely no circumstance in which the seller should be screwed buy fraudulent use od a buyers account, so your hypothetical mad granny stole my credit card, or retarded next door neighbour found my laptop, just doesn't cut it.

Either the buyer, or the buyer's credit card company or bank, should take responsibility for the actions of that individual account. And if neither is responsible or careful enough to do so, they should be removed from commerse on line until they can be trusted.

I think this is a rather short sighted viewpoint.  People get scammed out of both money and vital information on a daily basis, a lot of times to when isn't even their own fault. I can tell you of several times in the not so distant past where people had credit card information or bank information on file with large vendors that ended up being stolen and used. I am not even talking through online either, I am speaking specifically of they went to the store, purchased something and the company had the information on file or the cashiers managed to steal the information themselves and use it.  How can the person whose information was stolen and used be held accountable for it?  

CC companies already assume a large amount of risk as it is and a majority(if not all of it) of is covered through insurance.   The problem is that when people have their information stolen and used, everyone is losing out, not just the vendors who sold them merchandise. It's lose, lose, lose for everyone involved. Again though, that's the nature of the risk you take by being in business, no matter how large or small you are.  From huge corporations like Walmart and Microsoft all the way down to small Ebay stores like The RPG Swap Shop, it's all the same for everyone in that circumstance.

Badmike wrote:
As Brian said it's tough but it's the cost of doing business.  We may bitch and moan about it but what is the actual percentage of scumbags...less than 1 percent?  And listen guys we have it relatively good, dealing with RPG collectors instead of other areas. I can't even begin to tell you the horror stories of online sellers of stuff like baseball cards, baby clothes, sports memorabilia, comic books, etc. We really are relatively lucky to have less con men than a lot of other areas.

That being said it's very obvious in the last couple years Ebay/Paypal does not have the best interests of the sellers at heart, whether it be their own policies or the fact they have gutted their already very slim customer support to nothing.  Once again that's why forums like this are so valuable, they serve a good purpose in innoculating other sellers of similar merchandise from the scubabri420's of the world.

Mike B.

You are so right on multiple fronts.  I have experienced very little fraud in my D&D/RPG sales.  This is not the case with other things I sell.  I sell Yugioh cards from time to time as well as D&D stuff.   I ALWAYS used Delivery Confirmation or insurance with those shipments, but I rarely use Delivery Confirmation with my D&D stuff.  Gamers are just a better breed of people.  I don't know why, but I am not complaining.

Likewise, insurance is really the only surefire way of protecting the gain on a sale, but I rarely insure with the Post Office.  I self insure.  Every thousand or so sales, I might have some issue with a sale.  Even if I give a $100.00 refund(which I have never done), I still come out WAY ahead.  Those not so little $1.60 (or whatever it is) insurance costs add up pretty quick.

I think the other factor which has helped me considerably over the years is that I now have hundreds of customers who buy from me regularly.  I send out short e-mails twice a month saying what's coming up and so on, and these people bid higher than most other buyers because they factor in my shipping speed, or the way I list things, my communication, my good looks(NOT!) or something.  And the more often my repeat buyers buy things, the less likely other losers muck up any sales.  It doesn't solve the problem, it just reduces it to a tolerable level.

Finally, I can't say enough good about these forums and how they have alerted me of potential rippers.  When I hear about buyers who rip, especially from regular Acaeum members, I immediately add that name to my list of non-bidders.  I don't wait until I get ripped myself.

Wow that sounds f*cked up

This is a new policy, but it's one enacted because of new laws passed in congress designed to make brand name sellers "competetive" in the market place.  Ebay has actually fought these laws and is gearing up for another round:

"Stolen Goods" legislation
Representatives of some of the nation's largest retailers recently claimed that many eBay sellers are listing stolen goods, a baseless charge that hurts every honest seller. Big retailers are pushing legislation to prohibit some eBay categories and require sellers to post their personal information and show receipts for the purchase of merchandise sold online.

Price fixing
A 2007 Supreme Court decision reversed the federal law that made price fixing an illegal anti-trust violation. Overturning this nearly 100-year-old precedent has empowered manufacturers and their large retail distributors to aggressively enforce minimum prices on the Internet, which hurts eBay sellers and the Internet as a whole.

What the second one means, is that certain name brand retailers can prevent secondary outlets (such as Ebay) from selling certain items under a certain price...for example, you couldn't advertise a Prada purse on ebay for under, say, $100 or the listing would be yanked.  Ebay unfortunately has had to be very proactive here or they can now be sued by the manufacturers. There are both pros and cons to this and I can see both sides (manufacturers say this cuts out counterfeiters as they are often the ones underselling name brand items).

Argyle, I would bet this has to do with a non-RPG sale you've made in the last few months....

Mike B.

The latest from eBay.

Tell Congress, "No New Net Taxes"

   Internet Sales Taxes--Your costs go up. Your buyers' costs go up. You are required to comply with the same tax laws as the nation's largest retailers. This scenario could soon become reality.

   The sales tax laws governing today's Internet and catalog retailers are simple: If you sell something to a person living in your state, you collect sales tax. If that customer doesn't live in your state, you don't collect the tax. However, a number of state governments and the biggest retail giants in America are planning an aggressive lobbying campaign to change the law. They want to require small retailers to operate like the biggest retail chains, collecting taxes everywhere.

   We all know times are tough and state governments are looking for more tax money. Likewise, big retailers see an opportunity to gain a competitive edge by imposing new costs and higher prices on their smallest competitors. Luckily, the tax ground-rules can't be changed without congressional action. There's still time to stand up and be counted. If you think adding a new tax burden on small Internet retailers is a bad idea, now is the time to make your voice heard. Click here to send a letter to your U.S. Representative and Senators today.

   It won't be easy. But together, Internet retailers like you can stop these new taxes.

   Sincerely,

   Tod Cohen
   VP and Deputy General Counsel, Government Relations

"Your cost go up." ebay says our costs are going up?  Please!  It is eBay that is making the costs go up! It goes on to say, "This scenario could soon become reality."   Sheesh!  This is reality already!  eBay needs no help from the government.   eBay is just fine with its costs going up.   What a joke!

Let me clarify that I am not selfishly interested in my taxes going up, but maybe this is what needs to happen.  I am interested in hearing more about this matter in public discussions.

bbarsh wrote:Disclaimer - This is not a political post!

The Fed just pissed away 1 trillion of your tax dollars. Now we are hearing that the deficit is too high and it needs to be fixed.

A promise has been made that the deficit will be reduced by 50% in the next three years.

I've got news for you. TAXES are going up. I can gaurantee that internet sales are going to be hit at some point. The tax hike will first hit the "rich" then they will be going after business and corporate tax payers. To most of the country this is what I call invisible taxation.

If Ebay thinks they are going to make a stand against new taxes, they are insane. I think they are preparing for the worst in a year that is already going to bring some very ugly sales numbers....because as BBarsh said taxes WILL rise.  

California just got through passing their new budget to combat the 42 billion dollar shortfall....and surprise, it raises taxes AGAIN there (Cali residents are now the highest taxed state in the US).  New York is facing a 6 billion dollar deficit and is about to do the same.  BTW both Cali and NY have slashed all sorts of programs (some that needed to be cut, but others you have to wonder about like police, firefighters, child care and elderly care and services).  So, essentially, in those states you are going to be paying more taxes for less services.....EXACTLY the kind of thing that gets you people wanting to move to your state, correct?    

BTW Cali just lost 1.4 million residents last year (errr, LEGAL residents), as the "brain drain" has already started there in response to high business, state and local taxes.  I don't know where the rest of us will go when it happens to us..   Because sure as hell we will be hammered soon in an economy that is barely able to stand up on it's own.  Honestly I don't know where a lot of people are going to get this extra money to pay the higher taxes.

Oh, and when they say they are going to tax the "rich" grab your wallet and run....it typically means if you make a living wage you are going to get taxed....

Mike B.

bbarsh wrote:Disclaimer - This is not a political post!

The Fed just pissed away 1 trillion of your tax dollars. Now we are hearing that the deficit is too high and it needs to be fixed.

A promise has been made that the deficit will be reduced by 50% in the next three years.

I've got news for you. TAXES are going up. I can gaurantee that internet sales are going to be hit at some point. The tax hike will first hit the "rich" then they will be going after business and corporate tax payers. To most of the country this is what I call invisible taxation.

Banks shall be controlled by the government, lowering the mortgages, allowing more people to stay in their homes and pay property taxes.  Then roll back the Bush tax cuts and tax the rich like the Clinton years.  Just this time don't take the surplus and put it in housing, put it towards improving the infrastructure.

ShaneG.

Viva la revolucion?