increment wrote in Hawk & Moor: A new D&D book and request for beta readers:On a more general point of method

darkseraphim wrote in Hawk & Moor: A new D&D book and request for beta readers: it all depends on how far one wants to go

This is like watching a cleric & a magic-user argue over the true nature of spells.

Or like this:

Cleric:  Spells are divinely inspired, they are gifts of the gods.
Magic-User:  Indeed, if you can't think for yourself and you have no self-initiative.
C:  Wisdom is more important than intelligence!
MU:  Sure is, if you're dumb.
C:  You're just making this personal now, little man.  How does it feel to have half as many hit points?
MU:  I can seize and control all my own spells, through the powers of cognizant reason!  I need no allegiance!
C:  I should certainly hope you can, since nobody else really likes you …

darkseraphim wrote in Hawk & Moor: A new D&D book and request for beta readers: mere psychic powers.

I'm more inclined to compare D&D stuff to the outside world in general, so the appearance of psionics in the 1970s is a gold mine for comparison to cornball New-Age philosophy (Suggested reading: Spirit World #1 with art by Jack Kirby). It is a pity that TSR did not follow through on this when they licensed pencil sharpeners in the mid-80s, which really should have been pyramid-powered rather than the traditional metal-bladed type. Fortunately they got their act together by around 1990, when Dragon Magazine featured ads from The Franklin Mint for quartz-crystal pendants to give to your girlfriend (which, being 1990, would likely have resulted in a sexual-harassment complaint).

darkseraphim wrote in Hawk & Moor: A new D&D book and request for beta readers:World of Greyhawk* To my reading, the post-nuclear Dead Zone deserts, or "Desert of the Death," appear to be a direct inspiration for the Sea of Dust

Recently I have been looking at AD&D in terms of what it copied from the competition; for instance JG's City State as an influence on the urban section of the DMG. The Plaines of Prax from Nomad Gods (1977) is a post-apocalyptic desert. Could this have influenced Gygax? Or are we talking about Arneson? That is, Arneson's description of the Blackmoor campaign as described in FFC seems to involve mucking about in southwestern regions for a crashed spaceship etc. (which would apparently pre-date Nomad Gods).

Hi guys,

Thanks for the comments

I agree about the New Age thing … I was also thinking about mentioning the general fan affection for Vulcans and their powers (which are even funnier in a D&D context when you consider they didn't want elves to be psychics).  I'll have to check out Spirit World, as I've never read it … and it's been a while since I peeked at Nomad Gods as well.

Zenopus, thanks for the historical rundown

Random trivia note, there's a real-world mottled worm (Aporrectodea icterica, 1826) classified by science.  It's just a plain old earthworm but Gary might have known about it to pun on it, not sure.  Not aquatic but some are translucent purple.  I've already gone over the purple wyrm (Chainmail) and the tentative dhole and sandworm connections but haven't found anything definitive on mottled worm (as opposed to wyrm) yet.

From what I understand, the Sea of Dust was first described in Quag Keep (1976) which I haven't read yet.  Perhaps it was detailed in play around 1975.  It's mentioned in the Quag excerpt in The Dragon #12:  "Farther south was that awesome Sea of Dust from which it was said no expedition, no matter how well equipped, had ever returned. Though there were legends concerning its lost and buried ships and the treasures which still might exist within the petrified cargo holds of those."  So I guess it was conceived as a dune sea at that time, but perhaps not something caused by cataclysm?  I know a character mentions it as such, and says that a race of old created ships that sailed the sands as if they were an ocean.

It sounds like the psionic system that originally appeared was Steve's proposed character class(es) that got made into the more general psi system for EW.

Any news about a print/pdf edition of the book?  

I (finally) just finished reading books I & II, and purchased (and read!) book III (as well as the Steam Tunnel Incident), both in appreciation of being gifted books I & II a while back.  I also left positive reviews on Amazon.

In short -- great job, fascinating story!  You'd think I, of all people, would be familiar with the "genesis narrative", but I wasn't.  Maybe it's because neither Gygax nor Arneson ever posted here -- and in fact, I had only brief correspondence with either of them.  I got the impression that Gygax, especially, somewhat resented the collecting hobby -- perhaps he had a sense we were further commercializing "his" game, or getting away from the whole point of the game, which was to play it.  I don't know.

Regardless, from the facts you present that I have some knowledge of, I was in complete agreement.  With one exception: in Book 3, you talk about the Third printing being moved down to Heritage Models in Texas, which was correct.  However, you state that it was the first white box printing; in fact, the Third was the last of the woodgrain prints.  It wasn't until the massive Fourth print that TSR switched to white boxes, along with using Patch Press in Wisconsin.  A fairly minor point, to be sure, but it brings up the complication that they used the same box manufacturer -- or at least, the same woodgrain wrapping supplier -- as the first two prints, even though they switched printers.  This implies either that they grossly over-purchased boxes with the Second print, or, the boxes were supplied by a third party.  I'd lean towards the latter, but that's just me using Occam's Razor.  Maybe somebody from the day (Rob?) could say more definitively.

Other than that small issue that only you and I care about, it looked bulletproof to me!  Thank you for the enormous amount of effort you put into this --

Foul

FoulFoot wrote in Hawk & Moor: A new D&D book and request for beta readers:I (finally) just finished reading books I & II, and purchased (and read!) book III (as well as the Steam Tunnel Incident), both in appreciation of being gifted books I & II a while back.  I also left positive reviews on Amazon.

In short -- great job, fascinating story!  You'd think I, of all people, would be familiar with the "genesis narrative", but I wasn't.  Maybe it's because neither Gygax nor Arneson ever posted here -- and in fact, I had only brief correspondence with either of them.  I got the impression that Gygax, especially, somewhat resented the collecting hobby -- perhaps he had a sense we were further commercializing "his" game, or getting away from the whole point of the game, which was to play it.  I don't know.

Regardless, from the facts you present that I have some knowledge of, I was in complete agreement.  With one exception: in Book 3, you talk about the Third printing being moved down to Heritage Models in Texas, which was correct.  However, you state that it was the first white box printing; in fact, the Third was the last of the woodgrain prints.  It wasn't until the massive Fourth print that TSR switched to white boxes, along with using Patch Press in Wisconsin.  A fairly minor point, to be sure, but it brings up the complication that they used the same box manufacturer -- or at least, the same woodgrain wrapping supplier -- as the first two prints, even though they switched printers.  This implies either that they grossly over-purchased boxes with the Second print, or, the boxes were supplied by a third party.  I'd lean towards the latter, but that's just me using Occam's Razor.  Maybe somebody from the day (Rob?) could say more definitively.

Other than that small issue that only you and I care about, it looked bulletproof to me!  Thank you for the enormous amount of effort you put into this --

Foul

Hi there Foulfoot, thank you for the kind words and the reviews … and the correction of course!  I'm sure it's one of many faults in the text but I'm happy to hear from others and to include them and their insights into the publishing process.  Since H&M is so contingent upon others' recollections and knowledge, I think of it as a collaborative endeavor and I'm happy to cite those who provide useful improvements  Also I recommend Playing at the World if you're interested in D&D's pre-history, as Jon goes into much more granular detail on the 1969-1972 time span than I.

I'll be updating Book III this weekend with this correction and a couple of other new pieces relating to Elric, Conan and parallels in the 1975 D&D materials.

**

Also, for those who are interested in following progress on Book IV, here is the 1976 chronology that I am currently hanging the draft narrative on.  Sources for this year are shakier than for 1975 or 1977, so if anyone has additions or corrections I am grateful for them.  Thanks everyone!

EDIT:  Timeline revised October 9th, as I've been doing some extensive research and found some new things.

I
January:  Alarums & Excursions #7 is published.
January:  Dave Arneson moves to Lake Geneva.
January:  The Dungeon Hobby Shop is prepared for its future opening.
January:  Owl & Weasel #12 is published.
January:  Gary Gygax and Brian Blume begin working on D&D Supplement III:  Eldritch Wizardry.
January 13th:  Gary writes in a letter that the Dungeon Hobby Shop will be opening on February 1st.
Mid-January:  Dave Arneson begins working in the TSR headquarters building as Research Director.

II
Early:  Gygax and Blume discuss the shifting market, and the need to clarify and unify the direction of the D&D game.
Early:  In the Greyhawk campaign, Terry Kuntz's Monk With No Name character paints the tower of the wizard Klinchak.
Early:  Jeff Berry and others play in Professor Barker's Tékumel campaign.
Early:  Brian Blume designs various artifacts for the upcoming Eldritch Wizardry supplement, including the Eye and Hand of Vecna.
Early:  Inspired by Blume's work, Gygax creates his own artifacts, such as the Iron Flask of Tuerny the Merciless.
Early:  Paul Jaquays runs a D&D campaign.
Early:  Gygax begins outlining plans for the revision of the D&D system.
Early:  Rob Kuntz and James M. Ward research material concerning deities and mythology, which will become the future Supplement IV:  Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes.
c. Early:  Lord Robilar flees Greyhawk and adventures in the Empire of Lyhnn, reaching the Temple of Zuggtmoy.
c. Early:  In the Greyhawk campaign, Terry Kuntz's Monk With No Name character extorts the lawful fighter Ayelerach.

III
February 1st:  The opening of the Dungeon Hobby Shop is delayed.
February 1st:  Copyright date for The Strategic Review #6.  The bard class is featured.
Early February:  John Eric Holmes's novel Mahars of Pellucidar is published.
February 5th:  Mixed to negative reviews for D&D Supplement II:  Blackmoor begin circulating in the various publications.
February:  Owl & Weasel #13 is published.
February:  Alarums & Excursions #8 is published.  Gygax discusses issues of copyright and piracy.
February 14th:  Gygax writes an article on the state of the gaming industry, to be published in The Strategic Review #7.
c. Late February-Early March:  Tim Kask works on the potential layout for the upcoming magazine The Dragon #1.
c. February or March:  Gygax's Mordenkainen and Kuntz's Robilar adventure in Arneson's City of the Gods.

IV
March 5th:  TSR becomes more aggressive in defending the D&D copyright, and begins issuing cease and desist letters to various parties, beginning with a publisher of unauthorized character sheets.
March 6th:  The DunDraCon I conference is held, with special guest Fritz Leiber attending.  The Lankhmar-inspired Ophidian Palace dungeon is played.
March:  David Megarry begins working for TSR.
March:  Alarums & Excursions #9 is published.
March:  Mike Carr begins working for TSR.
c. March:  Gygax receives a "sci fi D&D manuscript" from James M. Ward, which will later become Metamorphosis Alpha.
Late March:  Although the doors remain closed to the published, the mail order division of the Dungeon Hobby Shop is functioning by this time.

V
c. Early Spring:  John Eric Holmes contacts Gygax, interested in writing a manuscript to be entitled D&D for Beginners.
Spring:  Gygax, Kuntz, Brad Stock and Harry Fischer work on the rules for the upcoming Lankhmar wargame.
Spring:  Gygax designs the tournament scenario Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.
Spring:  The Space Gamer #5 is published.
Spring:  Stephen Colbert discovers Dungeons & Dragons.
Spring:  Tim Kask words on the psionics system for the upcoming Eldritch Wizardry supplement.
Spring:  Paul Jaquays, with the approval of Tim Kask (TSR), prepares the text of the forthcoming The Dungeoneer #1, and designs F'Cherlak's Tomb.
Spring:  Hoping to publish a Civil War game through TSR, Bill Owen drives to Lake Geneva and meets with Dave Arneson.  When Owen's design is turned down, Bill tells his friend Bob Bledsaw that they may be able to publish D&D accessories instead.
c. Spring:  Gygax works on the demon and demon lord entries for the Eldritch Wizardry supplement.
c. Spring:  TSR prepares to license the production of fantasy miniatures.

VI
April 1:  Copyright date for The Strategic Review #7, the final issue.  Gygax clarifies the D&D magic system.  The TSR Periodicals Division is announced.
April:  David C. Sutherland III begins working at TSR.
April:  Neil Topolnicki begins working at TSR.
April:  Alarums & Excursions #10 is published.
April:  Gary writes an update on the science fiction version of D&D, which will become Metamorphosis Alpha.
April:  Enthusiastic pre-orders are received for the unavailable Eldritch Wizardry.
Mid-April:  Tim Kask works to finalize the manuscript for Eldritch Wizardry.
April 23rd:  Kask writes the Foreword to Eldritch Wizardry.
April 24th:  The Grand Opening Celebration of the Dungeon Hobby Shop begins.
c. April 27th-May 1st:  Availability date for D&D Supplement III:  Eldritch Wizardry.

VII
May 1st:  The weeklong Grand Opening Celebration for the Dungeon Hobby Shop ends.
c. May:  Tim Kask receives flawed advertisement copy, and is left with a space to fill in the magazine.  After conferring with Gary, he prepares the first "Creature Feature," creating the stats for the bulette monster in the process.
May:  Alarums & Excursions #11 is published.
May:  The Strategic Preview #3 (the first issue) is published.
c. Late Spring:  Gygax works on the text and maps for the upcoming Dungeon Geomorphs Set One:  Basic Dungeon.
c. Late Spring?:  Gygax and Kask conduct a week of meetings to determine the split of D&D topics into Basic and Advanced.
May or June:  The delayed Little Big Horn game is released.
May-June:  Steve Marsh — despite the use of his psionics material and other pieces in Eldritch Wizardry — receives no payment for his contribution, and only a few issues of The Strategic Review (and, upon its publication, one of The Dragon).

VIII
June 1st:  Copyright date for The Dragon #1.
June:  The Dungeoneer #1 is published.
June:  Alarums & Excursions #12 is published.
June:  Palace of the Vampire Queen is published.
June:  Defending the D&D copyright, TSR prohibits a zine editor from republishing D&D tables in summary form.
June:  The Strategic Preview #4 is published.
c. June:  Tim Kask and Dave Arneson clash over the editing of The Dragon.
c. June:  The 3rd printing of the 3rd Edition of Chainmail is released.
c. June:  Dungeon Geomorphs Set One:  Basic Dungeon is published.
June 11th-13th:  The MichiCon V conference is held.  The D&D scenario Escape from Astigar's Lair is played.
c. Early Summer?:  Holmes begins writing D&D for Beginners.
June or July:  The Space Gamer #6 is published.  A TSR-affiliated lawyer letter is discussed in regards to Tunnels & Trolls advertisements.
c. June or July:  Erol Otus sends artwork featuring an ice worm monster to Tim Kask, effectively introducing himself to TSR.
June 30th?:  For the end of its fiscal year, TSR posts approximately $300,000 in revenues with gross income slightly in excess of $200,000.
c. Summer:  TSR and Minifigs reach an agreement to release an official line of D&D miniatures in the future.
Summer:  Rob Kuntz and Ernie Gygax work in the Dungeon Hobby Shop.

IX
July 1st:  The TSR edition of the game Battle of the Five Armies is released.
July 4th:  The Foreword for D&D Supplement IV:  Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes is written by Tim Kask.
July 4th:  Judges Guild is founded by Bill Owen and Bob Bledsaw.
July:  Alarums & Excursions #13 is published.
c. July:  Gygax completes the manuscript for D&D Supplement V:  Swords & Spells.
c. Mid-July:  The Strategic Preview #5 is published.
July 15th:  Gygax and Blume write the Foreword to Metamorphosis Alpha, although the game will apparently be delayed and not published until November.
July 18th:  Bledsaw & Owen meet with TSR to discuss future game publications.
July 21st:  Copyright date for D&D Supplement IV:  Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes.
July 22nd:  Tim Kask writes the Foreword to D&D Supplement V:  Swords & Spells.
July 23rd-25th:  The Origins II conference is held.  The D&D tournament features Gygax's Expedition to the Barrier Peaks scenario.
July 31st:  Copyright date for the wargame William the Conqueror, 1066.

X
August 1st:  Copyright date for The Dragon #2.
August:  The Strategic Preview #6 is published.
August:  Bledsaw and Owen prepare the City-State of the Invincible Overlord for its upcoming Gen Con premiere.
August:  Ken St. Andre's Monsters!  Monsters! supplement is published.
August:  Alarums & Excursions #14 is published, featuring The Adventure of the Giant Chameleon by Holmes.
August 20th-22nd:  The Gen Con IX conference is held.  Bob Blake's Baldemar Castle is the D&D tournament dungeon.  Fritz Leiber and Harry Fischer are guests of honor.  The Lankhmar game is released.  Swords & Spells is likely also released at this time.
c. Late August:  The TSR UK distribution deal is worked out with Games Workshop.
c. Late August:  Fritz Leiber stays at the Gygax residence as a house guest.
August or September:  The Space Gamer #7 is published, featuring a review of Eldritch Wizardry.

XI
September 4th-6th:  The Gen Con West conference is held.
September:  TSR and Judges Guild begin formulating stricter publication policies and royalty agreements.
September:  The Dungeoneer #2 is published, featuring The Fabled Garden of Merlin.
September:  Bill Owen and Bob Bledsaw prepare Judges Guild Booklet I for publication, and come up with the idea for Dungeon Tac Cards.
September 27th:  Liaisons Dangereuses #74 is published, featuring Len Lakofka's Pyrologist class (a fire-specializing magic-user).
September or October:  Alarums & Excursions #15 is published.  Gygax discusses the Greyhawk campaign.
c. September-October:  Judges Guild breaks even and begins generating a small profit.

XII
October 1st:  Copyright date of The Dragon #3, featuring Notes on Women and Magic by Len Lakofka.
October:  Alarums & Excursions #16 is published.
October:  Judges Guild begins mailing its Initial Package materials to subscribers.
c. October:  With the distribution deal in full force, Games Workshop begins making inroads into the UK role-playing and wargaming community.
c. Autumn:  Using TSR art and advice, Minifigs devises the sculpts for their upcoming line of fantasy figures for D&D.
October or November:  The Space Gamer #8 is published.
c. October-November:  Gary revises his existing Lost Caverns of Tsojconth dungeon notes for tournament play.  The troglodyte may have been invented at this time.

XIII
November:  The Metamorphosis Alpha role-playing game is released.
November:  Alarums & Excursions #17 is published.
Mid-November:  Dave Arneson leaves TSR.
c. Late:  Gary begins writing and assembling the draft materials which will become the future Monster Manual.  This will take him approximately six months to complete.

XIV
December 1st:  Copyright date of The Dragon #4.
December 3rd-5th:  The WinterCon IV conference is held.  The D&D tournament features Gygax's Lost Caverns of Tsojconth.
December:  The Dungeoneer #3 is published.
December:  Judges Guild publishes Booklet J and Journal J.
December:  Alarums & Excursions #18 is published.
December:  Norma Bledsaw begins working for Judges Guild as a paid employee.
End:  Owl & Weasel #23 is published.

Hi all, after much wailing and gnashing of teeth, version 1.0 of Book IV should be available on Amazon either tomorrow or Wednesday. Sorry for the delays, it was a beast.

The next little project will be to update Books I, II and III again with additional material (especially for Book I), perhaps with timeline appendices included, but it depends on how much free time I get.  After that, I will be pursuing the untouchable Questing Beast known as "Ye Print Edition."  Should I succeed, that will be available before the end of the year.  If anyone knows if CreateSpace allows and plays well with .pdf uploads, please let me know as that would cut down significantly on layout time.

Thanks to all for any additions and corrections ... and although I'm not doing an intensive beta read invite on this one, here is a special note to Acaeum members:  if you're allergic to the $3.99 asking price, you may want to wait until next weekend or thereabouts, when I will be running a 5-day promotion for free downloads of Book IV.

But please don't expect the 1977 book(s) until 2015!

*collapses*

any news about a possible print edition (even a Lulu one) of this most wonderful book?