The Acaeum Dungeons & Dragons
Collecting Forums

3.0E vs. 3.5E
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 4 of 712, 3, 4, 567
Author

User avatar

Sage Collector

Posts: 2508
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Last Visit: Sep 15, 2025
Location: France / Cité des Papes

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:02 pm 
 

ashmire13 wrote:I guess I never got to the high levels of 1st Ed, but even so, that just sounds like madness to me...


With WotC, madness become reality :)


Adventures in Austerion : a fantasy RPG, with boardgame mechanisms and modular battlemap. By Guillaume Tavernier and Géraud G.

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6720
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:16 pm 
 

ashmire13 wrote:
Already, I don't like the sound of that!!  8O   

I guess I never got to the high levels of 1st Ed, but even so, that just sounds like madness to me...


The monsters are scaled the same way.

The problem becomes...how many uber-monsters can be found in one medieval kingdom?


"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

  


Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3549
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Last Visit: May 16, 2026
Location: Wandering aimlessly on the 8th level down...

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:32 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:
how many uber-monsters can be found in one medieval kingdom?


Exactly.  :roll:

Irrespective of monsters scaling upwards, whats the point? I know it's fantasy & Conan or Heracles would rip a beasts head clean off, but that's just not balanced in the RPG world IMO


Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

  


Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3549
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Last Visit: May 16, 2026
Location: Wandering aimlessly on the 8th level down...

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:32 pm 
 

lokiwookie wrote:
With WotC, madness become reality :)


:lol:   true enough


Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
JG Valuation Board
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1624
Joined: Aug 19, 2008
Last Visit: Aug 21, 2023
Location: Chicago, IL

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:27 pm 
 

lokiwookie wrote:
1) level 9 or 10. Power attack, with other feats like weapon spe, improve critical and a +2 bastard sword (when you take this kind of sword with 2 hand instead of one, all bonus are doubled for power attack for example)... you add a nice strenght bonus, it is done when you roll a 17-20 ;)
2) Yes, we use expansion books. There is a set of expansions we didn't use but I don't remember which ones.
In addition we played in Scared Lands where magic users are weaker than in other worlds (percentage of failing a spell when it is cast, is doubled for example when you are a wizard).


Let's work the numbers a bit, for a Level 10 Fighter specialized in his +2 Bastard Sword, with a Strength of 22 (+6):

Base to hit: [Level (+10/+5), +2 BS (+2), Weapon Focus BS (+1), 22 Str (+6)] = +19/+14 (FYI - He gets a 2nd attack at 6th level).

Base Damage: [+2 BS (+2), Weapon Spec. BS (+2), 22 Str (+6)] = +10 +1d10

Now, with Power Attack you can reduce your attack (Up to your Base Attack, which is +10 since he's a L10 Fighter) to increase your damage on a 1:1 ratio. Since he's using the weapon 2-handed, the damage is now a 2:1 ratio.

So when he's swinging for the fences, his attack bonus is now +9/+4, and his damage is +30 +1d10.

To "critical" with your weapon, you must roll in the d20 and score in your threat range (19 or 20 for a Bastard Sword), and be able to hit that armor class with your initial roll. Then you roll to "confirm" the threat by rolling your d20 again and hitting the target AC. With Improved Critical, you double your threat range (now 17-20 with his BS).

So theoretically, he could do up to a maximum of 160 points of damage in two swings.

However this is far from the case, and this is why I'm reponsing to this post in particular.

1) With a +9/+4 to hit at 10th level, you won't hit much. My L6 3.5 wizard can have a 27 AC with only 3 buff spells (Cat's Grace L2, Shield, L1, Greater Mage Armor L3). Good luck in hitting me at that range, IF I let you get that close to me.

2) The 100 point swings only enflame the 1.0 purists on this board


RPG’s, D&D in particular has had a major influence in my life. It’s bonded me together with life long friends...it’s that bond in life not just as friends, but in our jokes, our mannerisms, and what we find funny. Invincible Overlord

 ICQ  

User avatar

Verbose Collector

Posts: 1382
Joined: Nov 03, 2008
Last Visit: Apr 07, 2026
Location: My Pad

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:37 pm 
 

Agreed that 3.5 ran more smoothly than 3.0. Given the choice, I'd use 3.5.

But I'll also add the caveat that I left 3E behind and sold the books a year ago due to lack of caring about all the bookkeeping and bloat.

One aspect that almost never seems to get much attention is the concept of giving actual levels to common folk, i.e. commoners, experts, adepts and so forth.

What does this do in practice? Great, you have a group of four 1st level adventurers getting in a scrap with a 10th level farmer with a pitchfork and possibly losing one or two members (situation dependent, of course, as they might come out unscathed).

It really throws out the reason that weapon damage is what it is in the first place, that a single weapon hit without modifiers could possibly kill a common peasant.

  

User avatar

Prolific Collector

Posts: 541
Joined: Oct 26, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 02, 2026

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:37 pm 
 

Invincible Overlord wrote:
1) With a +9/+4 to hit at 10th level, you won't hit much. My L6 3.5 wizard can have a 27 AC with only 3 buff spells (Cat's Grace L2, Shield, L1, Greater Mage Armor L3). Good luck in hitting me at that range, IF I let you get that close to me.

2) The 100 point swings only enflame the 1.0 purists on this board



I was wondering out how he came up with that.  Good breakdown.  Some of the claims about 3.5 in this thread are kinda out there.  If your fighter can do 100hp's per attack on a regular basis, that's a seriously broken game, and that has nothing to do with the ruleset.

Also I tend to disagree with the premise that the game breaks down at high levels.  I would say it can be hard to balance ANY edition of the game at very high levels, but that's where good DMing comes in.  You have to get creative.  And in 3.X, DMs have alot of tools to help them---that's what monster levels and templates are for.

That's one of the things that makes encounters in 3rd Ed fun.  You see an orc guarding a chest.  But is it just a standard MM entry orc?  It might be.  Or it might be an orc with 10 fighter levels and a fiendish template.   :twisted:


The owls are not what they seem...

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3865
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Last Visit: Jul 20, 2023
Location: Milford, Michigan

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:00 pm 
 

Agent Cooper wrote:
Also I tend to disagree with the premise that the game breaks down at high levels.  I would say it can be hard to balance ANY edition of the game at very high levels...


Highest level our group ever achieved was 10-12 and the party got slaughtered in D3 - not even in the vault but in the caverns on the way there...

Personally, I am not a fan of anything past 9th or 10th level anyway. I have always thought D&D's sweet spot is 5-7. Although I also enjoy 3-5 levels a ton.


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

New modules for your Old School game http://pacesettergames.com/

Everything Pacesetter at http://pacesettergames.blog.com/

 WWW  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:33 pm 
 

Agent Cooper wrote:You see an orc guarding a chest.  But is it just a standard MM entry orc?  It might be.  Or it might be an orc with 10 fighter levels and a fiendish template.   :twisted:
I agree with the concept to a point, assuming careful observation can ascertain which is which.  We used to call that a 2 or 3 HD orc chieftain.  Ten fighter levels seems to be stretching it, and I don't even want to know what a "fiendish template" does.

 YIM  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3865
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Last Visit: Jul 20, 2023
Location: Milford, Michigan

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:44 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:I agree with the concept to a point, assuming careful observation can ascertain which is which.  We used to call that a 2 or 3 HD orc chieftain.  Ten fighter levels seems to be stretching it, and I don't even want to know what a "fiendish template" does.


Exactly, what happened to the golden days when you group of 5th levels ran across a group of kobolds and figured it would be good old fashion ass-whuppin' only to have the kobolds unleash a torrent of javelins of piercing or lightning. Keep your stinking 10th level orcs... :D


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

New modules for your Old School game http://pacesettergames.com/

Everything Pacesetter at http://pacesettergames.blog.com/

 WWW  


Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3549
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Last Visit: May 16, 2026
Location: Wandering aimlessly on the 8th level down...

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:47 pm 
 

Amen to that!  :lol:

Just bolster the normal bad guys, or as deimos says, make sure its a chieftain as the MM etc list those anyway.


Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6720
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:49 pm 
 

Invincible Overlord wrote:
Let's work the numbers a bit, for a Level 10 Fighter specialized in his +2 Bastard Sword, with a Strength of 22 (+6):

Base to hit: [Level (+10/+5), +2 BS (+2), Weapon Focus BS (+1), 22 Str (+6)] = +19/+14 (FYI - He gets a 2nd attack at 6th level).

Base Damage: [+2 BS (+2), Weapon Spec. BS (+2), 22 Str (+6)] = +10 +1d10[/u]


A couple of corrections, IO:

He's fighting two handed, so his strength bonus to damage is +9 (6x1.5)

+2 Magic, +2 Specialization, +9 Strength = +13

Add in the power attack of +7 doubled and you get +27

He has a total of +15 "to hit" if he adds in the weapon focus feat.  He is hasted (+16) and there is a bard song (+17) and a clerical enhancement spell (+18) and he has a 4 point bonus to his strengh from a Bull's Strength spell (+19)

Let's assume there are no situational modifiers like flanking or charge.  (And note that I have been very conservative with the bardic and clerical buffs.)

Let's assume a monster with a 20 AC.

He only throws over 7 points (let's say) because he is living dangerous.  That means his three (3) swings this round are at +12/+7/+12 (extra swing because he's hasted.)

He needs to roll an 8, 13 and 8 to hit three times.

The damage for a standard hit would be 27+1d10

So, the fighter should expect to deliver a couple hits of 28-37 damage.

The minimum for three hits would be 28+28+28 = 84

The maximum for three hits (no criticals) would be 111.

Factor in a minimum damage critical hit and one other regular hit:

Minimum damage:  56+28 = 84  Maximum:  111


That would be a good round.  A more average round would be about 56 points of damage.  With any luck, he will do the top end of damage fairly often...and there are multiple allied fighters of various types also attacking.

All of this fits within the logic of 3.5.

If you want to snort and cough about it consider the damage totals inflicted on much weaker monsters in AD&D after the publication of Unearthed Arcana.

The game broke down even earlier in AD&D after Unearthed Arcana was published.


"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

  

User avatar

Sage Collector

Posts: 2508
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Last Visit: Sep 15, 2025
Location: France / Cité des Papes

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:59 pm 
 

Invincible Overlord wrote:Base Damage: [+2 BS (+2), Weapon Spec. BS (+2), 22 Str (+6)] = +10 +1d10

Now, with Power Attack you can reduce your attack (Up to your Base Attack, which is +10 since he's a L10 Fighter) to increase your damage on a 1:1 ratio. Since he's using the weapon 2-handed, the damage is now a 2:1 ratio.

So when he's swinging for the fences, his attack bonus is now +9/+4, and his damage is +30 +1d10.


You forgot that Strength bonus is multiplied by 1.5 when you use the weapon with 2 hand (so, Damage +9 instead of +6) :)

So a total for the moment of 33 + 1D10 (43...)
Then, if he makes a charge, he add +2 to his attack roll

Invincible Overlord wrote:To "critical" with your weapon, you must roll in the d20 and score in your threat range (19 or 20 for a Bastard Sword), and be able to hit that armor class with your initial roll. Then you roll to "confirm" the threat by rolling your d20 again and hitting the target AC. With Improved Critical, you double your threat range (now 17-20 with his BS).

So theoretically, he could do up to a maximum of 160 points of damage in two swings.


Basically, 172 actually :) with no other feats or bonus than the one in PHB. With no expansion book rules (which improve highly the fighter)

Invincible Overlord wrote:However this is far from the case, and this is why I'm reponsing to this post in particular.

1) With a +9/+4 to hit at 10th level, you won't hit much. My L6 3.5 wizard can have a 27 AC with only 3 buff spells (Cat's Grace L2, Shield, L1, Greater Mage Armor L3). Good luck in hitting me at that range, IF I let you get that close to me.

2) The 100 point swings only enflame the 1.0 purists on this board


Hum, AC: 10 + 2 (Cat's Grace, Transmutation/Alteration bonus, 1min per Level) + 4 (Shield, shield bonus, 1min per Level) + 6 (Greater Mage Armor, Abjuration/Force) (and Greater Mage armor is not a basic spell..., so only available for some players, most of DM doesn't accept this spell)...
total 22...
You need to have 20 in dexterity to reach AC 27, so it means that you don't have a high score in INT (or you are very lucky and have two 18 at first level?)
And you can't have any other bonus since you use all kind of bonus IIRC...
And it means that the DM accept to give the best spells at each level, which is rarely the case... Mine never let me chose spells... Spells are find at random during the adventure.
And at level 6 you don't have a lot of money to buy spells like these ones I guess ;)

Anyway, it is not very hard to make 86HP with one shot. And some other feats, which are not basic rules feats, so I didn't quote them, could improve damages to reach 100 easily. Potions, magical items etc. Our fighter frequently go over 100HP on one shot.

And even if... a wizard lvl 6 have only hum... with chance.. 30HP?  :twisted:  So a fighter with cleave could cut 2 wizard like yours


Adventures in Austerion : a fantasy RPG, with boardgame mechanisms and modular battlemap. By Guillaume Tavernier and Géraud G.

 WWW  

User avatar

Sage Collector

Posts: 2508
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Last Visit: Sep 15, 2025
Location: France / Cité des Papes

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:01 pm 
 

Wow, the time to write, some other wrote before me  :(
my english is too poor... I am too long to write  :? I need to improve that  :evil:


Adventures in Austerion : a fantasy RPG, with boardgame mechanisms and modular battlemap. By Guillaume Tavernier and Géraud G.

 WWW  


Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3549
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Last Visit: May 16, 2026
Location: Wandering aimlessly on the 8th level down...

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:34 pm 
 

lokiwookie wrote:my english is too poor...


but considerably better than the little French that I know...  :lol:


Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

  

User avatar

Sage Collector

Posts: 2508
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Last Visit: Sep 15, 2025
Location: France / Cité des Papes

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:22 pm 
 

ashmire13 wrote:
but considerably better than the little French that I know...  :lol:


Thanks for supporting me in my effort ;)


Adventures in Austerion : a fantasy RPG, with boardgame mechanisms and modular battlemap. By Guillaume Tavernier and Géraud G.

 WWW  


Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3549
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Last Visit: May 16, 2026
Location: Wandering aimlessly on the 8th level down...

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:41 pm 
 

C'est pas grave mon ami    8)


Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 8079
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jun 24, 2026
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:22 pm 
 

Four pages into a 3/3.5/4E thread and no one has told anyone else to "Fuck Off" yet?  Will wonders never cease?   (Here it comes...wait for it....)

Mike B.


"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

 WWW  
PreviousNext
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 4 of 712, 3, 4, 567