@Ian: I'd be more than happy on that trade if your valuation was on the mark (my second copy has cut character sheets used in play at the tourney - as with Bill's that started this thread - and spine tears from careless handling by the seller) but unfortunately the market dictates that's higher.

The likes of Tsoj is a "less than the sum of it's parts" case whereas woodies are "more than the sum of their parts": goodness knows why that should be (interesting psychology!) but it is and has proven to be repeatedly over the years.

d.

mbassoc2003 wrote:My character sheets are cut, but otherwise unmarked. Presume they were once two to a sheet and then cut in half?

Yep.

Sound advice, bclarkie.  The elitist nonsense regarding "true blue collectors" only accepting high grade items into a collection is pure trolling.  We've got collectors of every stripe on this site, it's offensive to suggest some are real collectors and others are not.  A few more clarification points and then I'm done, as mbassoc has his answer already.

Pipswich wrote:if the sites valuation of high condition copies is simply a standard percentage adjustment based upon mediocre ones...then not a single member of any major bookseller association or appraisal association in the U.S. can knowingly use the sites valuations of copies in good or better condition.

It is not, it is quite a bit more complicated.  I was merely pointing out that the valuation spread in terms of relative percentage is constant.  This means you cannot paint dissimilar items with the same brush, just as you cannot grade stamps or coins using a book scale.  The nature of the item matters.

Whether any sort of external association can use it has never been a concern.  They can always regrade things at their leisure, or go pout in the corner if they prefer.  The fact is this system works for this community and works well, and it has for years.  There have been some minor quibbles on various points, but on balance it's a good reference.  You are correct that Buyers/Sellers should not use as an authoritative source when making purchase decisions, as it's not a price guide.

Gnat the Beggar wrote:From Good Condition down two or three grades?

I believe you're taking mbassoc's usage of the word "good" too literally in assigning a "Good" grade there, but in any event I agree there should be one or more grades deducted because it has had some pages replaced.  We can't forget this is a gaming accessory; it would certainly lose even more grades if they were absent and the module couldn't be played.  But I agree that if the module were otherwise in Fair/Good, it would drop to Poor.  

What I reject is the notion that proper grading should ever follow a set of rigid, pre-defined rules.  There should be guidelines and examples of course, but that's it.  Grading is much like DMing, and not something a computer program should ever be capable of performing.  You could hook up a scanner and program in some rules, but it is fundamentally a comprehensive, contemplative process that requires human judgment.

I've observed that those most willing to bypass the mid-to-low grades and jump straight to Poor are often those same people that are totally unwilling to collect lower-condition items!  As they have no interest in such an the item, it may as well be Poor in their mind.  It hardly seems reasonable to take such grading seriously, because if someone has no interest in the lesser grades, they have precious little knowledge of the lesser grades and how to differentiate between them.  It's far more challenging, actually.

If you are genuinely interested in material that fits your examples...  you might enjoy a trip to the Boston Book Fair, the Hartford Book and Paper show, or any high end book and paper dealers retail gallery.  

Among things you will find are...

Artists books   (Audubon, Chagal, Ruscha... there are thousands).
Trade Catalogs (inserts, subscription forms, 3d go- alongs, etc.)
Books of paper dolls - over a century of them
Pop up books - over a century of them
Beat and 60's literature -  Steel this book/burn this book, etc.
Sunday School materials - yes they are actively collected by some
Tolkien material (omg... yes, that's where you would find it)

There really is a simple core disagreement here.  A few of us think that an item can not be considered to be in good condition if it is incomplete.  Others think it can with qualification.  No one seems to think it can be considered good without qualification.  (at least I hope not)

The second core disagreement is over whether or not this material can be graded using book standards.  That's odd to me because it appears that we are all using book standards with slight juxtaposition of near mint for fine.  There is very slight disagreement about what would require qualification and we would find that same level of disagreement over at ABAA, ABA, ABE or any traditional book site where people were discussing these issues.  

Now, this issue of the valuation board potentially defining good and very good dramatically differently than I (or many) of us would have expected.... and then using your definition to place inferior copies in the value tables to extrapolate the value of other items, is simply something I am quite happy to know.  This knowledge will inform how and if I use the tables to assist in decision making.  What you do with those is your own business.  The little bit of transparency this discussion has shed on your process is invaluable, however.  More than one collector has noted that they rely upon those tables to make decisions and I certainly incorporate them into my thinking, as well.

I'm with Xaxaxe. I really can't be bothered with grading systems, and I tend never to believe what people say anyways, on account to the likes of T&T and Tight Ass Games and Tonya's Ass Wipe Shop, and all those other lying AHs who plead ignorance and say they didn't reaslise their staff were so crap at their jobs (or whatever excuse is convenient when they are asked to defend their blatant falsehoods).

So I tend to buy from people who's reputations I know, and when I sell, I take lots of large photos, describe the imperfections, and offer a no quibble refund if someone buys and doesn't want. I tend not to sell anything in fair or poor condition, prefering to sell or give those things away (or even skip them). Even now I have a slowly filling box of ditritus that will eventually find a new home at shipping cost, or work it's way into landfill.

Grading is completely subjective. General words like 'near mint' or 'excellent' may be used to give a general opinion of where you think something lies, but that really depends on both the buyer and seller having the same perception of what 'excellent' or 'near mint' means. My experience tells me that 'near mint' for most large eBay resellers means 'has been used fairly carefully and may contain only a small amount of writing, usually in pencil', and 'excellent' means 'has been used well, has most of the pages, and is generally readable. May contain writing and drawings in biro and coloured pencil, and may be torn in places'. Anything that I persoanlly would consider skipping will be sold by the big boys and 'good' or 'very good' condition.

The bigger the seller, the more likely his setup is to be lying about condition, and the more likely you are to get screwed. eBay has proven that time and time again.

Pipswich wrote:Now, this issue of the valuation board potentially defining good and very good dramatically differently than I (or many) of us would have expected.... and then using your definition to place inferior copies in the value tables to extrapolate the value of other items, is simply something I am quite happy to know.

The grading guidelines used by the Valuation Board are listed on the front page, and they are the standard to which all members adhere.  However, they are guidelines.  The point is that nothing is cut-and-dried in grading, and often discussion occurs between members on a particular rare sale until a consensus is reached.

http://www.acaeum.com/frontdesk/frontdesk.html

The important thing to note is that the valuation numbers are a set of  weighted computed averages.  The reason is that eBay sales are both infrequent and fluky in terms of sale price, so we can't merely average all the Fairs to get the Fair valuation for a particular item, etc.  You'll end up with a bizarre situation where a low grade is listed for more than a higher grade of the same item.  The more data we have, the more reliable they become.  

I do agree with Xax though.  As far as selling on eBay goes, it's usually best to let a description of flaws and some high-quality pictures do the talking.  Avoid the words "good", "fine", or "mint" altogether.  (Not to mention VGC.  Never use VGC.)

deimos3428 wrote:(Not to mention VGC.  Never use VGC.)

Lawl!

Yeah, no kidding. Cougie just might have ruined "very good" forever for all D&D collectors. Just another part of his legacy to the hobby ...

Pipswich wrote:Thanks for linking the valuation and grading pages.  I managed to never see them in a year.  Certainly, the conditions are padded by bookseller terms.  But, at least they are clear.  And, fortunately, for me, there has probably only been a couple of items that I might have chased to much higher numbers had I already read this!  too bad for the sellers though!

There is actually a wealth of information on the site that many people miss because it's straight off the index page, so don't feel bad about that.

Pipswich wrote:
 

There really is a simple core disagreement here.  
A few of us think that an item can not be considered to be in good condition if it is incomplete.  
Others think it can with qualification.  

bclarkie wrote:Who exactly is this "few of us" do you refer to?  

Me too.
I am a few people....