That is a crazy price stratochamp.  It was a tough decision to put it here or the silliest thread.

Sealing a subpar item in a plastic tub won't fix its condition I'm afraid.

-SKA

Just so I am being clear, what I think is crazy is paying $500 for a mediocre condition copy of an uncommon module. I fully endorse paying up for wonderful condition rare items...I've been doing that for over 40 years. My friends laughed at me when I paid $46 for a shrink wrapped "new" orange B3 at GenCon in 1982, the first one ever sold. I completely understand paying 10,000 for woodgrain box sets, they are the foundation of our hobby and becoming increasingly rare, especially in collector grade. Buy why pay $500 for a mediocre uncommon item, just because its mediocrity of condition has been officially established? Another one in the same condition is available on the web in the next week for under $100.

stratochamp wrote in Your opinion doesnt matter anymore:Just so I am being clear, what I think is crazy is paying $500 for a mediocre condition copy of an uncommon module. I fully endorse paying up for wonderful condition rare items...I've been doing that for over 40 years. My friends laughed at me when I paid $46 for a shrink wrapped "new" orange B3 at GenCon in 1982, the first one ever sold. I completely understand paying 10,000 for woodgrain box sets, they are the foundation of our hobby and becoming increasingly rare, especially in collector grade. Buy why pay $500 for a mediocre uncommon item, just because its mediocrity of condition has been officially established? Another one in the same condition is available on the web in the next week for under $100.

But as others have said, you are paying for the plastic box, the certificate, and the fact that the world's self-appointed experts who have zero expertise of knowledge about D&D have graded the item before sealing it to prevent criticism or inspection from the idiots who are unworthy and unqualified to inspect or question their work. Its the greater fool system at work. People will buy because they believe their will find a bigger idiot than they are somewhere along the line. The only person (other than the unqualified grader himself) who makes money is the original owner who takes the item and sends it for grading. At the moment, because he's at the beginning of the chain, its a good money play for him. So good on them for doing that. I hope it works out for them and they make a tidy investment. As for the buyers of the little plastic boxed, they get what they deserve. They can't pretend they didn't know.

Would you rather...

Have a shrink wrapped B2 or a CGC slabbed and graded 9.8 B2?

I ask believing most are not too interested in graded modules.

Tszii wrote in Your opinion doesnt matter anymore:Would you rather...

Have a shrink wrapped B2 or a CGC slabbed and graded 9.8 B2?

I ask believing most are not too interested in graded modules.

I'm with Stratochamp in the 'shrinkwrap' thing. I've re-shinkwrapped so many second hand things and sold them as brand new, working for highstreet retailers, that I can attest that the majority of 'shrinkwrapped' items from the 1990's onward are a die perpetrators by eBay sellers in order to con their buyers. T1-4 was not delivered shinkwrapped into the stores in the UK. They came in a box and were shrinkwrapped by the store, or left open to be read by the punters. It was the first thing I recall getting returned after someone bought it, and I checked the map books was there, flicked through it quickly, re-shrinkwrapped it, and put it on the shelf for some sucker to buy thinking he was buying something brand new. I realise there are people who just cannot get over that and believe that it only happenned in on major UK chain, buy we were the largest reseller of RPGs in the UK, and we were in every UK city, and I don't imagine the UK ware years ahead of the US in getting shrinkwrap technology into retail stores. I'd put money on retailers doing the same thing in the US.

So as to the question of B2, vs B2 in a chastity box, I'd go for the B2 I can inspect an check. I have a tactile hobby. But in regards to condition, I'm at a stage now with 'collecting' that I'd rather have a dozen B2's in good condition that I can give away to people, than a NM condition B2 anyways. But I imagine I'm on my own in that regard.

mbassoc2003 wrote in Your opinion doesnt matter anymore:But as others have said, you are paying for the plastic box, the certificate, and the fact that the world's self-appointed experts who have zero expertise of knowledge about D&D have graded the item before sealing it to prevent criticism or inspection from the idiots who are unworthy and unqualified to inspect or question their work.

Sometimes, you make me laugh hard enough that I keep you around.....

Mike B.

Out of a possible 10, that makes this copy average, which visually speaking based on the three photos, it is about average for what we see for Dragon #1 over the years. So maybe 40% or more of all copies in existence are in better condition than this one. That's not 6 copies, but more like 6000. This would be the perfect example of the ripoff nature of the business. Notice that the seller states, 'no need to judge the condition' explicitly telling the buyer to switch off the rational function of their brain. It occurs to me that these plastic boxes are IQ tests?

That doesn't get away from the fact that it is not even in Good Condition. A large majority of the existing copies in the world today are equal to, or in better condition than that one. That makes the grading the thing completely pointless. The plastic box around it and the statement that the buyer should not judge the condition of the item and buy it because it is so rare that only 6 copies are better than it, is a test to see how stupid people are. It's no different than blindly believing what any institution of 'experts' tells you and choosing not to engage in rational thought because the 'expert' has already done that bit for you. How many people are doing that every day of their lives because the 'expert' says they need to do this or do that.

Someone has effectively said, 'this is the absolute worst copy I have ever seen, with the possible exception of one other. Every other copy I have ever seen has been substantially better than this. It is so bad that I cannot possibly charge someone for my service without listing it as equally bad as the worst copy I've ever graded. This copy never even managed to reach average, its that bad. We place this in the bottom 25% of all copies we've ever seen.'

But the seller chooses to lie about the quality of what he is selling and encourage the idiots among the community to not think about what they are doing, just buy from him? That is deceitful right there.

mbassoc2003 wrote in Your opinion doesnt matter anymore:That doesn't get away from the fact that it is not even in Good Condition. A large majority of the existing copies in the world today are equal to, or in better condition than that one. That makes the grading the thing completely pointless. The plastic box around it and the statement that the buyer should not judge the condition of the item and buy it because it is so rare that only 6 copies are better than it, is a test to see how stupid people are. It's no different than blindly believing what any institution of 'experts' tells you and choosing not to engage in rational thought because the 'expert' has already done that bit for you. How many people are doing that every day of their lives because the 'expert' says they need to do this or do that.

Someone has effectively said, 'this is the absolute worst copy I have ever seen, with the possible exception of one other. Every other copy I have ever seen has been substantially better than this. It is so bad that I cannot possibly charge someone for my service without listing it as equally bad as the worst copy I've ever graded. This copy never even managed to reach average, its that bad. We place this in the bottom 25% of all copies we've ever seen.'

But the seller chooses to lie about the quality of what he is selling and encourage the idiots among the community to not think about what they are doing, just buy from him? That is deceitful right there.

I am the seller of this item and I really take issues with your attacks on me and really your ignorance of the grading industry in general. You have the right to your opinions but when you use those opinions to call me a liar, you are crossing a line sir.

Grading is and has been a staple of almost every mainstream collectable hobby.... stamps, coins, comics, magazines, etc. for many many years now. Are you trying to tell us that all of these hobbies are full of ignorant and stupid people??? And that only you in your inestimable genius have the ability to see through this massive scam being perpetrated on millions of collectors??? I think the odds of this are not with you.

The benefits of grading include indisputable provenance of authenticity as well as no subjective condition assignments. This is not you estimating the condition of an item, this is an independent assessor using systematic criteria that is applied universally across all items. In addition, you will find an accountability system through an online database where one can verify the certification numbers and quantities of items at varying conditions. This all helps to assess values based on rarity. Naturally, rarer items will command higher values. All of these factors combine to, more often than not, increase the value of item when compared to an ungraded item in equal or similar condition. Last, but not least, grading ensures your valued collectable is slabbed and protected, maintaining its value through life's misfortunes... dropping, moisture damage, moths, moving, etc.

With the values of collectables commanding sometimes huge values, who in their right mind would not want to spend a premium for a certified and judged item? Especially as fraud and counterfeiting encroach on items not seen as lucrative to counterfeit in that past.

Now as far as my listing, this is a graded example by a highly respected company. Nothing in my add is a lie. I am completely up front about the graded condition (FINE-). I also buy and sell non-sport and sport trading cards and for graded examples it is standard to list the population report when selling. This is called being UP FRONT, it is not an attempt to dupe the buyer. The fact of the matter is there are only 2 CGC graded 5.5 examples of this magazine out there, with 6 more graded higher. That makes this a rare item regardless of your attempt to quantify how many Dragon magazines are out there still in existence and your attempt to say half are in better condition. This is just supposition on your part and based on your experiences. Can you quantify these numbers with evidence? No, you can't. Until, and when, more Dragon #1's are graded, we will never know the true numbers or rarities.

As for my comment in my listing "No need to judge condition". This is a fact, as I am not telling the buyer my opinion on the condition, it has been assessed and graded using stringent criteria. It seems you would be more happy if I broke it out of the slab and claimed it was near mint!!!

I avoided this discussion until know, as I saw that it was just going to be a time sink arguing with someone who has already made up their mind about the grading industry and incapable of understanding others viewpoints. But when I am directly attacked and called a liar, then that is crossing a line. I will defend myself from unsubstantiated attacks. You may disagree with my pricing, that's fine. No one has a gun to anyone's head, we are all adults and have the intelligence to decide what an item is worth to us.  

I appreciate that some may not like grading which is fine. But don't let that dislike transfer over to attacks on those who do.