Ghul wrote:I can discuss what was actually printed, and how the creative process worked, if folks find that sort of thing interesting, but I can't discuss the details pertaining to that which went unpublished.

While the original intent was to figure out the path for my next round of collecting, venturing off-topic seems common 'round here.

After studying several campaign settings, it was obvious Greyhawk is entrenched and almost inseparable from 1E and OD&D.

I'd very much like to know what has been printed about Castle Zygag and/or Castle Greyhawk (which seem to be the same thing).  
And who all has published material?
And when?


Thanks!
Keith

Ghul wrote:Keith,

No disrespect intended, but I don't think you realize the enormity of the task you request.  There are GH enthusiasts online who have spent months and years compiling this information, and I'm afraid I don't have the time or the resources to list it all out myself. I'm sure grodog can point you in the right direction. My apologies, kind sir.

Cheers,
Jeff T.

No need to apologize.  I worded my question poorly.

Let me put it this way:
Is "Castle Zygag: Upper Works" supposed to be the closest facsimile of Castle Greyhawk available?
(TSR published WG-7, but it was not well-received.)

And if this question sounds rooted in ignorance that's because I don't know what I'm talking about. :)

Thanks
Keith

To what extent is Castle Zagyg, The Upper Works your writing as opposed to Gygax's?

Did you simply write up Gary's notes?  Did you write areas yourself?

FormCritic wrote:To what extent is Castle Zagyg, The Upper Works your writing as opposed to Gygax's?

Did you simply write up Gary's notes?  Did you write areas yourself?

The work was collaborative, with Gary mostly supervising, and me in the trenches drafting and developing.

Gary provided me with mountains of notes and outlines to be developed into a written adventure series. To Davis Chenault he provided his original dungeon maps, which were to be copied and provided to me as a basis from which to key the encounters. Regarding the mapping of the Upper Works castle fortress, Gary provided the basic dimensions of the place, and I was expected to draw the floor plans contained within. This was also the case for the many towers and gatehouses populating the castle ruins. Gary provided some rough maps, and I was expected to re-draw these. For the dungeon levels, these maps were directly derived from his originals.

Yes, there were encounters that I developed on my own. And yes, I handled the bulk of the actual writing, but I was indeed working off of Gary's notes and outlines. He reviewed my writing and either approved, directed me to revise, or did the revisions himself.  

We exchanged hundreds of emails, spoke on the phone, and in person at his home and at cons (sitting in the booth, out to eat, or in the hotel). We had a very healthy communication.  Gary had a clear plan, but he was in poor health. He expended a lot of effort preparing me to develop the entire project from start to finish.

Gary provided me ample latitude, flexible and open to my thoughts and ideas, approving or disapproving developments (large scale and minutia) as he felt appropriate. I found him to be a great teacher and mentor, and as time passed we got to be great pals as well. It was an honor to know him and work with him, an experience I'll always cherish. Unfortunately, the project was never fulfilled as he had painstakingly arranged, which is a shame for the fans of his work.

Do you know of any talk about simply publishing the raw maps and notes?

As a gamer from the Golden Era, I would buy into such a project if the price were at all reasonable.

($45 for Castle Zagyg, The Upper Works, for instance, was a price guaranteed to get me into the deal.)

For Instance:  Part of the charm of First Fantasy Campaign, by Judges Guild, was the surviving, primitive Blackmoor materials compiled and published without much sophistication or redaction.  It remains a highly collectible publication four decades later.

FormCritic wrote:The Troll Lords publication was naturally keyed to their Castles and Crusades version of D&D.

Yes. Gary provided me stat blocks in AD&D format, a format I prefer. The C&C stat blocks are terribly wordy, but it is what TLG required of us, so we had to conform. I prefer something like HD 4, hp 20, AC 5, MV 12" and so forth. The C&C stat block is "conversational" and, in my opinion, more difficult to process in game play. Using the above example, a C&C stat block might read, This fighter has 4 hit dice and 4 hit points. It has an armor class of 5 and a movement of 30.  It goes on and on in that format, which I found to be a waste of space.

To what extent did the encounters and situations need revision in order to move between primitive and more complex editions of the game?

The systems were compatible enough. It's not like we were moving from AD&D stat blocks to Rifts, for example. With the exception of C&C's AC going in the wrong direction, most other statistics were the same. Even the AC is easily flipped by traditional gamers.

Lastly, a matter of semantics I admit, but I prefer "concise" instead of "primitive" and "bloated" instead of "complex," but YMMV.

Cheers,
Jeff T.

mbassoc2003 wrote:So, what became of the balance of the work, notes, maps after Gail pulled TLG's rights to publish? Do they remain in your possession? That sort of info is worth it's weight in gold (well maybe not at todays prices, but you get the idea.   ).

I'm afraid I'm going to have to take it all to the grave.

FormCritic wrote:
No, we mean after you die.  Where do we find it then?

Digging you up is gonna be a hassle.  

People are exhumed in Alabama all the time.
No big deal.
I can find lots of help from some boys on Brindlee Mountain.
(Yes, it really is as bad as it sounds.)


So, is CZ:UW even available from TLG anymore?
Quick skim of their website didn't show anything.

And I've been reading grodog's review of CZ:UW and his thoughts on Castle Greyhawk.  
Appears that, research-wise, I've opened a can of worms for myself.
Luckily I need the protein.

Keith the Thief wrote:
People are exhumed in Alabama all the time.
No big deal.
I can find lots of help from some boys on Brindlee Mountain.
(Yes, it really is as bad as it sounds.)


So, is CZ:UW even available from TLG anymore?
Quick skim of their website didn't show anything.

And I've been reading grodog's review of CZ:UW and his thoughts on Castle Greyhawk.  
Appears that, research-wise, I've opened a can of worms for myself.
Luckily I need the protein.

All of the Castle Zagyg stuff went over to his family and they broke ties with the Trolls (or so I remember the scuttlebutt of the time). The CZ Upper Works was available for sale for a few months, the price on it dropping all the time. I believe the last 3 copies I bought were down to $17.50 each, but when i started buying them the sets werer already marked down 35% from retail. How many years ago is that now?