Erol Otus Commissioned Work by the Acaeum • Page 25 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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Erol Otus Commissioned Work by the Acaeum
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Poll: What kind of artwork would you have Erol Otus Commission for the Acaeum?

I have no interest in any Erol Otus artwork.	9%	[ 11 ]
I prefer a color, 11x17 print.	15%	[ 18 ]
I prefer a black & white 11x17 print.	5%	[ 6 ]
I prefter a color, 17x24 print.	59%	[ 69 ]
I prefer a black & white 17x24 print.	6%	[ 7 ]
I prefer something else larger.	5%	[ 6 ]

Total votes : 117

Author

cheesepaws
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:37 pm

bclarkie wrote: How about that?

Sorry to see such a belligerent response - my apologies for upsetting you.

For the record I never said that this project couldn't happen. Then, like now, I was offering up an opinion regarding logistics and what I (wrongly) saw as a potential roadblock for the project. Nothing more. My opinion was offered in a very positive way for the project as a whole. Please re-read those posts and I am sure you will see that I had nothing but the success of the project in mind. (BTW - I got some nice PMs from fantasy illustrators filling me in on just how awful they are paid - a real crime.)

I don't see any evidence that the results of a lottery would be contended. Most folks here seem very reasonable -- which is exactly why others might want to have a second look at the notion that first come/first method for this project might be flawed. Suggesting that the committee reconsider seems very fair -- if not responsible.

Lastly, I would be happy to share the labor of this project if invited. I have not been, but the committee has encouraged the community to post feedback - so I am doing what I can to add my "time and effort" to the cause.

Again, sorry my post rubbed you the wrong way.

Cheers.

cheesepaws
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:39 pm

Center_Stage wrote:Um...who is cheesepaws?

Just a guy with 13 posts.

copycat
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:47 pm

Who is serleran? Has anyone here actually met him?

Those who can, don't. Those who should not, do.

bclarkie
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:55 pm

cheesepaws wrote:Sorry to see such a belligerent response - my apologies for upsetting you.

I had a belligerent response? My belligerent response was a direct result of the ivory tower you were preaching from.

cheesepaws wrote:For the record I never said that this project couldn't happen. Then, like now, I was offering up an opinion regarding logistics and what I (wrongly) saw as a potential roadblock for the project. Nothing more. My opinion was offered in a very positive way for the project as a whole. Please re-read those posts and I am sure you will see that I had nothing but the success of the project in mind. (BTW - I got some nice PMs from fantasy illustrators filling me in on just how awful they are paid - a real crime.)

I beg to differ. You pretty much said that the project as it was shaping up at that point and wasn't likely at all possible to the point that you gave several examples why, i.e

viewtopic.php?p=129008&highlight=#129008

cheesepaws wrote:Since so many of you are collectors surely you will recognize that, even if the end goal of this project is not one of investment value, the artist is obligated to protect the investments of other clients or collectors out there who have purchased original work or prints (at potentially much higher prices than $50 or even$2500). For example, I am a sculptor who has a verbal agreement with a gallery not to privately undersell work similar (in look, size, material, subject matter) to the work or mine that they have for sale. The fear being that I could hurt the client relationships that the gallery has already established with collectors. Essentially, it may be unethical for Otus to let these hypothetical prints go for so very little.

When I say "very little" I should say ridiculously, absurdly and nearly criminally cheap! Only a few months ago it cost $50 to fill your car with gas (twice for some). Hell, I advise student artists (I teach too) to price such minor efforts as 10 x 12 black and white photo (digital) prints for $75 - $150 each! Rarely are these prints limited by a print run or gain any value by being "signed".

cheesepaws wrote:I don't see any evidence that the results of a lottery would be contended. Most folks here seem very reasonable -- which is exactly why others might want to have a second look at the notion that first come/first method for this project might be flawed. Suggesting that the committee reconsider seems very fair -- if not responsible.

There has been nothing but bickering and name calling in the last several pages of this thread up to an including you your own criticism about how it's being handled as it is right now.

Why in the world would you believe it to be any different simply if a lottery was held?

cheesepaws wrote:Lastly, I would be happy to share the labor of this project if invited. I have not been, but the committee has encouraged the community to post feedback - so I am doing what I can to add my "time and effort" to the cause.

You're entitled to you're opinion. The problem I have is that you seem to be going out of your way to stone wall this project since you've joined the discussion. First it was you didn't think it was at all possible at the numbers being tossed around, now moving on to criticizing how the process is being done for it.

The thing that doesn't make sense to me is that for all this negative energy seemingly being spread in this thread now, why hasn't someone else decided to do a separate one of these on their own and do it how they see fit? Why doesn't cheesepaws(or anyone else for that matter) set up contact EO or some other old TSR artist and get the ball rolling there? Is there some unwritten rule that says that only one art print can be attempted at a time? There seems to be plenty of excitement about this particular project to possibly have enough people willing to go in a second one, so why not try to take advantage of it, rather than take pot shots at the people volunteering to do this one?

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

TheMilford
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:14 pm

bclarkie wrote:The thing that doesn't make sense to me is that for all this negative energy seemingly being spread in this thread now, why hasn't someone else decided to do a separate one of these on their own and do it how they see fit?

Because of the community aspect of this project... the excitement about being a part of something neat, the vehicle of the Acaeum itself lending to the format of the project, etc. Would it not be daft if I made another post starting a new EO (or another artist) project?

I will be looking into commissioning EO at some point for an idea I have... I almost approached him about doing some poster art for Tee Pee Records when I was still running the label... I have ideas but no project concept.

I respectfully urge the committee to realize this project is setting a precedent for these sort of endeavors in the future... The community at large should come away from this experience feeling positive.

â€œRemember that generosity can be contagiousâ€¦â€ - Dave Sutherland III

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Last edited by TheMilford on Fri May 15, 2009 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bclarkie
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:20 pm

TheMilford wrote:Because of the community aspect of this project... the excitement about being a part of something neat, the vehicle of the Acaeum itself lending to the format of the project, etc. Would it not be daft if I made another post starting a new EO (or another artist) project?

I don't see it as being daft at all. Why would you think it would be daft?

It certainly can't be any more daft then hurling accusations at a some people working on this on a volunteer basis only.

TheMilford wrote:I respectfully urge the committee to realize this project is setting a precedent for these sort of endeavors in the future... The community at large should come away from this experience feeling positive.

This appears to me is something that they have realized already, which is one of the many reasons that they have gone out of their way to be both open and communicative throughout the entire process, as well as doing their best to limit its scale. The larger the project, the more people involved, the more work that has to be done and therefore the more opportunity there is for it to fail. By keeping it in such a small scale at first, they are giving it the best chance to succeed.

One only needs to look at the large scale disaster that happened several times with PPP to realize what can happen if you over exceed your capabilities on a project.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

cheesepaws
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:24 pm

bclarkie wrote:You're entitled to you're opinion. The problem I have is that you seem to be going out of your way to stone wall this project since you've joined the discussion. First it was you didn't think it was at all possible at the numbers being tossed around, now moving on to criticizing how the process is being done for it.

Thanks for the response. I've made my points -- take â€˜em or leave â€˜em - and see no reason to have a back-n-forth with you to defend or justify my POV.

I will ask you to reread the older post of mine that you quoted from and linked. The bit you quote was illustrating concerns based on my own experiences working with fine art print makers (and some graphic designers). The post -- as a whole -- was intended to be constructive. I saw potential problems that might halt the project (wrongly perceived or not) and I offered solutions/opinions to help resolve these issues. It remains well intended, completely positive and even ends -- for those who might have missed it in the main body of the text --

cheesepaws wrote:Thanks for your ear.
I hope this project is successful!

Regardless of what you think of my ideas or motivationsâ€¦once again, thanks for your ear and I hope this project is successful!

copycat
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:25 pm

By the way, if anyone is curious, I have started a similar project but to have Jim Holloway do the piece, and it is for the Castles and Crusade Society. Details for that will be found on the Society forums:

http://domesday.proboards.com/index.cgi? in the Improvements section. You must be a registered member to see or comment.

Just saying.

Those who can, don't. Those who should not, do.

TheMilford
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:27 pm

bclarkie wrote: The larger the project, the more people involved, the more work and therefore the more opportunity there is for it to fail.

This has been said before. Upping the count by 10-15 or even 20 prints is a minuscule change... and not a recipe for failure... in fact I bet a $100 to Ben and the committee that it will help in the long-run.

But I digress... I've said my piece before. My parting advise is the same to the committee:

As somebody that used to do these kinds of projects for a living... and somebody that is a fan of EO and somebody that want's to see this succeed in every way... To include all interested members as of the last count would be the best and only way to make this project as awesome and righteous as it can be.

â€œRemember that generosity can be contagiousâ€¦â€ - Dave Sutherland III

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Last edited by TheMilford on Fri May 15, 2009 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

deimos3428
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 10:04 pm

Quite a few people have suggested now that this is not an "Acaeum Community" project. Allow me to retort.

Consider the argument that it is not a project that it serves the whole Acaeum community, merely because some members of this community are not participating. Does the Acaeum Valuation Board not serve this community? It's a bunch of hand-picked volunteers. Does our illustrious administrator, Foulfoot, not serve this community? Just one guy! How elite! How about the Wiki? A handful of people. Or the Donations Program? Sadly, also a handful of people. The argument just doesn't hold water.

Consider the source of these arguments. How well do the people making such claims really know this community? How much have the contributed to it? It seems to me that several of those making such claims have done rather little in that respect -- so how can their claims be taken seriously? I'm not talking about post count, but clearly that's a factor. I'm talking about all the little things beyond merely posting that make the Acaeum community great.

As someone that has spent considerable time, effort, and money on (nearly) every Acaeum project there has been in the last 5 years, let me assure you that this is every bit an Acaeum community project.

I'm proud of the guys that are undertaking this endeavour, because it shows immense community spirit, particularly in the face of such bitterness and ingratitude. Keep up the good work, guys.

mnw
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 10:27 pm

Correct me if I'm right, but wasn't it you that was telling people to shut up and leave this alone? Seems to me things were winding down so why the need for what you have posted? What is it you actually want, silence or another round? Indeed, Deimos, we aren't worthy and it's perfectly reasonable to suggest those who have been excluded from this community venture not only accept their whipping but be grateful for it. Good posting mate, really helps.

gyg
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:06 pm

And on..................................
Ad infinitum...........................

Without re-reading this whole mess, and just an opinion based upon nothing more than gut feeling.

I think 50 is fine. It may be an arbitary cut-off point but then, as these threads have proved, we could go round and round forever.

It may be sucky for those out of the loop, but then, this will always be the case when a line is drawn, it might be a shame, it might seem unreasonable, it might even be stupid and pointless, but at least it has been clearly stated and utterly telegraphed to all and sundry.

This was always going to get a bit contentious, things always do when emotions run high, but it seems that the organisers of this are doing the right thing and sticking by a decision made.

As I say, a line has been drawn, and for better or worse, everyone has to accept that. Or at least realise that if their continued argument are going to be fruitless if they do not accept it.

Couple more points -

I truly hope this is going to be a great success (and from what I've seen/heard I think that sooner or later I will have this picture in my collection). But let's be honest, with all this palaver, who among us would be willing to go through it all again with a different artist, in a completely unbiased fashion, without letting some of the vitriol in these posts colour the process in some way.

If it does happen again, how about those on the wait list getting first dibs the next time round? :roll:

And as for this being a limited run to increase it's value as a collectible. Anyone wanna bet that one of these will not come on the open market for at least 2 years after printing? I reckon that those few lucky enough to get one will be holding on to it for as long as their collection lasts. I genuinely feel that this is the sort of thing that will only be sold when the whole collection goes (rare, but it happens).

You can never have too much of something you didn't need in the first place.

TheMilford
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:13 pm

gyg wrote:I think 50 is fine. It may be an arbitary cut-off point but then, as these threads have proved, we could go round and round forever..

Except that, to the best of my knowledge, it has held steady at 19 or so since April 21st.

â€œRemember that generosity can be contagiousâ€¦â€ - Dave Sutherland III

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dbartman
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:30 pm

I guess I'm late to the game on this conversation but my 2-cents is leave it as-is. Once the number is established for a limited quantity run when does it ever change? Almost never. If it does, it defeats the purpose. If I had not been fortunate enough to get into the top 50 I would have sucked it up an moved on. That's life. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

Besides, there will probably be a number of these prints that will wind up being resold on eBay or through other channels anyway...

That's my 2-cents. Okay, maybe 1-cent worth of contribution.

bclarkie
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:41 pm

For reference, I figured I'd pull up a couple of important posts that may have gotten lost in the shuffle. The first one carries quite a few good points for those of you still on the waiting list and why it's probably important on this first run to maintain the size, as well as why you should not necessarily give up hope that you're out of luck for this particular print.

Tharizdun wrote:I saw this happen on another site. Same situation almost. People there have the $$$ and a good community of collectors (possibly smaller then here) looking to have an original piece of art created as the logo for the site itself with a print for everyone who would chip in. It didn't work out...
Some of the pitfalls:
1) How many people vote yes Vs how many people will actually pay.
2) What happens to the original? This is a problem as there's an original that will come of this and you're already talking about more $$$ that it would cost Joe Blow to commission a piece (as an individual) Vs the numbers you're talking about... How many people want to donate this to some charity auction/raffle it off/ whatever...
3) Why go through an "intermediary"? Why not email him directly. Never a good idea to use an intermediary unless you have to... You're going to pay more than Joe Blow paid for his personal commission going this route.
4) Whoever becomes the liason schmoe will be doing the work here. Coordinating all the general BS will become a chore. Especially when the artist is ready to go and the group is still vascilating about what they all want... people will not pay, things will get mixed up. Coordinator guy will start to tire of the experience... probably looking at out of pocket expenses... this is when it went downhill at above said site. "This is a great community though"! So is the other one
5) What happens to the original.
6) The silent majority will likely not be enthused with the minorities "vision" and then see #1.
7) What happens to the original? This will really become a problem, watch and see
I think this is a fun idea and hope it works out for you guys. It's really hairy though...

This second post here was posted by BJD back on March 6 of page 7 of this thread.

I pulled it up because it's important to note that several folks on the list at this point are listed for multiple copies of the proposed print. The reason I think it's important is because these people are no longer getting as many as they originally wanted all due to the fact that the print was decided upon to be limited to 50 of them:

benjoshua wrote:We now have 50 solid art requests with several folks yet to clarify their interest. Adding your name to this list does not commit you to buy a print, but indicates strong interest and the money to back up that interest.

The list I have, in the order of their registered interest, and the quantity they desire are:

Benjoshua 1
Mars 2
smarmy1 1
le Rahib 1
bombadil 1
misterspock 2
simrion 1
grodog 1
PaulKM 1
mdr003 1
Badmike 1
Gyg 1
jasonw1239 1
stratochamp 1 (edit: 2)
dbartman 1
carrejo 1
Serlean 1
Rakeesh sah Tarna ? (Edit: 1)
mbassoc2003 2
Center_Stage_Hobbies 1
Kingofpain89 1
deimos3428 ? (Edit: 1)
Prufrok 2
Yaya 1
Tharizdun ? (Edit: 1)
FoulFoot 1
Grug Greyskin 1
Blackmoor 1
AdderMcOne 2
lawrenson 2
JohnGaunt 1
The Collector's Trove 2
Ekim Toor 1
Phaedran 1
jonjhargreaves 1
bbarsh 1
Nice Hantlers 1
ScketreWhisp 2
ExTSR 1
JasonZavoda 1
Jaybird216 1
Hermit from Pluto 1
Lucyjoyce 1
dsaunders 1
Edit: Aneoth 1
Deogolf 1
Edit: Rabbit_67 1
Edit: Bracton 1
Edit: Auverax 1
Edit: Pipswich 1

There are several regular folks not on this list, so feel free to contact people personally about their interest between now and the interest deadline so our working list is more complete.

In other words, it's not just the people on the waiting list that have potentially lost out due to the decision to keep the first shot at this to 50 total. Several people on the list have lost out as well, all so that other people could get in on the list of 50.

So again, please consider this when tossing about anger and accusations at the people who are doing their best while volunteering their time and their effort while trying to put this whole thing together.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

deimos3428
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Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 2:23 am

megnelwil wrote:Correct me if I'm right, but wasn't it you that was telling people to shut up and leave this alone?

Yeah, and you just couldn't do that, couldja? Next time take my advice.

Indeed, Deimos, we aren't worthy and it's perfectly reasonable to suggest those who have been excluded from this community venture not only accept their whipping but be grateful for it. Good posting mate, really helps.

You got no less than what you deserved, so next time don't start what you can't finish.

mnw
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Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 6:00 am

I'm going to put your response down to the exuberance of youth, Deimos, and move on.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 6:01 am

One solution may be to ask everyone to pay upfront. How many collectors have enough faith in our community and the artist concerned to pony up $50 and wait for the outcome at Christmas or maybe nexy year?
That should sort out the difference between the 'I want to be included' people who are scrambling to get on the list, and the 'I just want the chance to buy, but I'm not committing myself' people who are not on the list but just being mouthy about wanting the number increased arbitarily. There is a big difference between talking about things and taking action and puting your money on the table.

We have a committee who have taken action and are all trustworthy people. I for one am happy to lay my money on the table.

And before we go down the RJK route, none of us got stung or lost out there. We may not have known the delay was going to happen, and we may feel agrieved at the darkness we were kept in, but we all got our product and I haven'y heard anyone complain about the outcome. Paying up fromt is a perfectly sensible way of investing in something that's to be commissioned, and $50 is not gonna run anyone into bankrupsy (and if it were, they probably shouldn't be hanging around on the board anyhow).

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

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