D&D version 4.0--what do YOU think it's going to be like • Page 25 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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D&D version 4.0--what do YOU think it's going to be like
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Xaxaxe
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:10 pm

Traveller wrote:(DON'T ASK!)

Well, there's always a kid in every class who hears that ... and then asks. I think that kid might be me.

I know very little about OSRIC, but I thought it pretty much had the stamp of approval from many of the grognards. Aren't the first two letters representing "Old School"?

Is it the system or is it Dragonsfoot that's bugging you, Trav? Both?

FormCritic
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:51 pm

I think it is interesting when someone argues that WOTC is "just trying to make money."

Um...Duh? :wink:

Companies are supposed to make money. It's what they do.

Putting out new editions of established RPG's is the standard method of game companies for making money.

For me, gaming is not about rules editions. It is about people.

Related thoughts about D20/3.0/3.5:

The concept of an Open Gaming License was brilliant...the spark to a flare of creativity that burned hard for eight years. Sometimes that flare was erratic, but it also gave us companies like Paizo, Green Ronin, AEG, Troll Lord, Goodman, etc. It also gave a bunch of gamers their big chance to publish their magnum opus and have their day.

Part of the rationale for 4.0 has to be the need to take back the OGL and apply a tighter control on the market. The first step was to take back Dragon and Dungeon. What will probably emerge is a market with higher quality publications and years of profits to come.

Without WOTC, there might not be a large game market to complain about. There might not be a GenCon or new editions of D&D to complain about.

OK...so a race that breathes fire is goofy and childish. Remember that even owning a D&D boxed set originally made all of us extreme nerds and/or dorks right from the start.

Mark

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

g026r
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:54 pm

FormCritic wrote:Part of the rationale for 4.0 has to be the need to take back the OGL and apply a tighter control on the market. The first step was to take back Dragon and Dungeon. What will probably emerge is a market with higher quality publications and years of profits to come.

While I understand the desire to try and ensure a higher degree of quality, it's also disappointing that the new GSL appears to limit some of the more creative applications of the OGL that were produced.

"Reader, Carthegena was of the mind, that unto thoſe Three Things, which the Ancients held Impoſſible, there ſhould be added this Fourth ; To find a Book Printed without Errata's."

FormCritic
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:04 pm

g026r wrote:
While I understand the desire to try and ensure a higher degree of quality, it's also disappointing that the new GSL appears to limit some of the more creative applications of the OGL that were produced.

WOTC is quite naturally motivated to kill off 3.5 so they can sell 4.0. It is, in fact, exactly what we would expect.

I suspect that this aspect of their plan will undergo revision as they get a sense of the bitterness of their fan base.

(Remember EGG's embarrassing rants about TSR's paternal status in Dragon years ago?)

My own sense is that, at this point in gaming history, WOTC will find that they cannot call all the shots in the marketplace. I suspect that their reliance on the major Young Kingdoms game companies is greater than they might have suspected.

However...with the astonishing revelation (didn't know this) that Dragonsfoot forbids discusson of anything after 1999....well...maybe WOTC is prescient in their decision to jetison our generation as customers.

As a counter to that...consider what the car companies are doing. The old-schooling of the Mustang and the return of classic kid car brands like the Impala indicates that the car companies are aware of the buying power of Elder Dorks. WOTC may learn the same thing.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

FormCritic
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:07 pm

FormCritic wrote: Remember that even owning a D&D boxed set originally made all of us extreme nerds and/or dorks right from the start.
Mark

Oh...and I forgot to add...heretics and devil worshippers.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

copycat
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:11 pm

However...with the astonishing revelation (didn't know this) that Dragonsfoot forbids discusson of anything after 1999.

Not entirely true. If it were, there would be no C&C board, no Lejendary Adventure board, no "Other RPGs" board, and so forth. They draw the line at post-99 "D&D." That is, basically, (almost anything - d20 CoC is OK) bearing the d20 logo. They are not against OGL games, per se (ie, OSRIC, C&C, BFRPG, etc...)

Why this is, I don't know, nor care.

Those who can, don't. Those who should not, do.

g026r
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:13 pm

FormCritic wrote:However...with the astonishing revelation (didn't know this) that Dragonsfoot forbids discusson of anything after 1999....well...maybe WOTC is prescient in their decision to jetison our generation as customers.

Well, they permit discussion of things later than 1999, just not anything published for the D&D-brand (or the underlying d20 system, even if it isn't D&D-related) post-AD&D2e.

Dunno if they've relaxed the policy in anyway or not, but I doubt it. (I gave up visiting after watching one too many one-true-way arguments among fans of the same edition. "More Gygax than Gygax" is a phrase I've seen used to describe some of them. :roll:

)

"Reader, Carthegena was of the mind, that unto thoſe Three Things, which the Ancients held Impoſſible, there ſhould be added this Fourth ; To find a Book Printed without Errata's."

g026r
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:14 pm

serleran wrote:(almost anything - d20 CoC is OK)

Hrm. Sounds like they have relaxed the policy a bit then, as I recall seeing at least one d20 CoC thread being shut down for being, well, a d20 CoC thread...

"Reader, Carthegena was of the mind, that unto thoſe Three Things, which the Ancients held Impoſſible, there ſhould be added this Fourth ; To find a Book Printed without Errata's."

deimos3428
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:14 pm

Xaxaxe wrote:Two +2 modifiers is "massive."

Nope. Two +2 modifiers, no Two +2 modifiers on top of a guaranteed score of at least 8 in each ability, and no -2 modifiers at all, yes.

[edit]Yeah, yeah...you made me go and read the 4E PHB preview, ya bastich.

Last edited by deimos3428 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

copycat
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:21 pm

You're right, g026r, it did happen. But, I believe they later said that was a mistake and it was probably OK to discuss that particular game, so maybe it has relaxed a bit, or I'm just mis-remembering.

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Xaxaxe
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:27 pm

deimos3428 wrote:Nope. Two +2 modifiers, no Two +2 modifiers on top of a guaranteed score of at least 8 in each ability, and no -2 modifiers at all, yes.

Aha! You do own the 4e PHB!

Yes, in the bigger picture, first-level characters are super-charged a bit, especially in the area of hit points ... or at least that's the stat that just leaps of the page and screams "look at me!"

I guess I just don't see that as a bad thing. My younger self â€” who was actually much more of a purist than my current self â€” probably would have screamed "heresy!" But, now ... hell, it just doesn't seem like that big of a deal. The game is more about the players than the characters to me.

Three hit points or 28 hit points? ... armor classes counting down or up? ... spell books or inherent magical ability? ... I guess I just don't really care. I get so few chances to do any gaming these days that I'll take what I can get.

FormCritic
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:30 pm

deimos3428 wrote:Nope. Two +2 modifiers, no Two +2 modifiers on top of a guaranteed score of at least 8 in each ability, and no -2 modifiers at all, yes.

That's interesting.

In 3.5, a score of 8 or 9 carries a -1 modifier. This creates problems....

....player characters naturally want high strength, constitution and dexterity. What that often means is minuses in other stats and a resulting lack of professional skills outside of combat. Even a -1 in intelligence pretty much guarantees no skill points to spend and that the subtle arts will not really work for your character.

The result is that the player feels compelled to bring on combat all of the time because he cannot do other things. Lacking the hooks to role-playing provided by skill points, the player generally feels his character hs to attack everyone and everthing:

Player: "Mark, is he being rude to her?"

GM: "He is speaking rudely to her, yes. He is, after all, King of the land."

Player: "Yarrrrrrrr!"

As I understand them, the simplification of the skills set in 4.0 relieves this inhibition to good role-playing. By providing every class with a basic set of hooks for role-playing skills (and the skills are "hooks," not powers) everyone has a chance to contribute something.

(Lest the "skills are not role-playing" theme pop back up, remember that skills were a part of AD&D as well. In fact, they were central to certain character classes...particularly thieves, but rangers and bards as well.)

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

g026r
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:36 pm

serleran wrote:You're right, g026r, it did happen. But, I believe they later said that was a mistake and it was probably OK to discuss that particular game, so maybe it has relaxed a bit, or I'm just mis-remembering.

I recall there was some discussion as to whether or not it should have been closed, but I think I checked out before it was ever resolved. I'm going to go with relaxed a bit, since that looked like the way it was potentially going to be end.

"Reader, Carthegena was of the mind, that unto thoſe Three Things, which the Ancients held Impoſſible, there ſhould be added this Fourth ; To find a Book Printed without Errata's."

deimos3428
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:54 pm

Xaxaxe wrote:The game is more about the players than the characters to me.

Bah, the players are the source of all problems! I've never seen a character I couldn't rip in half, and that'd be the end of the discussion...

g026r
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:56 pm

deimos3428 wrote:Bah, the players are the source of all problems! I've never seen a character I couldn't rip in half, and that'd be the end of the discussion...

That does it. If I ever game with deimos I'm bring a character sheet that's chiseled into stone. :lol:

"Reader, Carthegena was of the mind, that unto thoſe Three Things, which the Ancients held Impoſſible, there ſhould be added this Fourth ; To find a Book Printed without Errata's."

Xaxaxe
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:03 pm

I'm just relieved he didn't say he rips players in half.

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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:31 pm

FormCritic wrote:(Lest the "skills are not role-playing" theme pop back up, remember that skills were a part of AD&D as well. In fact, they were central to certain character classes...particularly thieves, but rangers and bards as well.)

I remember playing a magic user many years ago where the DM made us track material components quite closely.

There was myself and another MU in the party and some of the players thought it unseemly when, after a battle, we would swarm a hill giant corpse with rags to soak up their sweat for potion use. :lol:

That was a "skill-like" use of game mechanics that led to some interesting role playing.

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FormCritic
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:37 pm

Thank you serleran, for the Gleemax brain!

As the first official 4th Edition collector it has been rather humiliating not to actually own any 4th Edition items.

People were starting to point and laugh. :cry:

I asked my son to guess what was in the box. He said, "Old school dice!"

I said, "Almost exactly backwards!"

"New school dice?"

"NO...GLEEMAX!"

"Oh," said my son, looking slightly perplexed. "I heard that's not out yet."

I have never said the word, Gleemax, to my son, so that means that he has: a) Heard of it and b) Heard that it is not exactly a success.

Thanks, serleran.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

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