D&D version 4.0--what do YOU think it's going to be like • Page 22 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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D&D version 4.0--what do YOU think it's going to be like
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Zenfinite
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Deimos, I promise you, I am not marketing 4E. And if you seriously think this messageboard has one off-topic thread that doesn't deal with D&D collectibles as you think all the other threads do, just go look at the front page topics on Collecting General. I can count 20 threads easily that don't deal with D&D collectibles. No need to be angry at all. To be honest dude, if you wanted to start your own thread about how great Lejendary Adventure, TLG, and Hekaforge are, I couldn't be happier for you. I'd check out the first few posts, see if the thread interested me, then read or ignore as needed.

But hey, that's just how I roll I guess.

You're right, TSR doesn't do games anymore. Sure, I suppose a case could be made for moving this to the Non-TSR section, but as much as you'd like to disbelieve, this is the current incarnation of D&D and heck man, it bears discussing. Maybe in a couple months when we're all jaded and disillusioned and patting you on the back for your amazing insight on the worthlessness of this product, the furor will die down and these types of threads will vanish. However, it's brand new, and warrants discussion, at least in my opinion, and others seem to share it as well.

As far as your "counter-balance" stance, you're more than welcome to that as well. Bear in mind that your opinions (on this matter) would probably be held in higher esteem if you weren't so obviously biased, you know? The way I see it, if WoTC hadn't bought TSR, there wouldn't be a single other D&D product out there at all, and millions of people would be denied even the chance to discover a truly amazing hobby, role playing, and that would be truly terrible.

Don't we all just love D&D? Damn, I know I do.

Zen

Badmike
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:15 pm

Zenfinite wrote:
Don't we all just love D&D? Damn, I know I do.

If it was a chick, I'd be bangin' it every night, after buying it dinner and promising to respect it in the morning.....

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
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Xaxaxe
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:29 pm

In this post, I originally questioned a number of inconsistencies that appeared in other recent posts. But none of it matters.

Last edited by Xaxaxe on Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

copycat
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:36 pm

This is an observation only, and not an attack on any particular person or thing:

It is odd how many forums have longstanding members clash over something as simple as a numbered edition. Quite sad, really. I hope things will cool down and relax to the state they were at before whatever happened happened... but, if not, then it was nice to have you around as long as you were here - I don't plan on going anywhere.

Those who can, don't. Those who should not, do.

Badmike
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:40 pm

Xaxaxe wrote:And I'm sorry, but we talk about playing D&D here all the time, and it's just wishful thinking to think otherwise. How many anecdotes has Mike B. told over the years? (I'm not saying it's a bad thing! Most of them are pretty funny!)

Got to pad those posts....I'm shooting for 4000 before Gencon, baby! Prepare to get machine-gunned with some crazy OT anecdotes involving tricke I've taught pet turtles, women who have slapped me, and gaming sessions I ran while drunk on Tequila...

Fuck it; time for another long break, I think. With every month that passes, I feel more and more disconnected from this place, anyway. I've lost the plot, apparently.

But I'll return to my attic with a pledge: you'll never hear another word about 4e from me. Or 3e. Hell, I'll just be safe and say that I'll never even mention 2e again. I wouldn't want to mess up any more threads.

Hell, man, that's silly. You've got better stuff than most of us, and I enjoy your take (even though we are diametrically opposed on some topics) on most subjects. Just my uneducated opinion, but I actually think the tone and level of discourse has improved dramatically the last few months....some of the newer members are really good folk. Actually there has been a real good quality crop of newbies lately, something I love to see, as it seemed we were becoming a little inbred and insular for a time....

Mike B.

gyg
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:43 pm

Sure, I suppose a case could be made for moving this to the Non-TSR section, but as much as you'd like to disbelieve, this is the current incarnation of D&D and heck man, it bears discussing.

- I think the point that a few are making is that, while it may be so that 4E is the D&D of the here and now and it bears discussing to the nth degree, perhaps here is not the place. We can all agree that things certainly veer off topic and we discuss anything and everything at one time or another, however if we are getting all crotchety about this subject, then maybe it's time to stop.

That being said,Serl makes a good point - we could all do with chilling out a bit.

(Dragonborn my hairy arse!!)

You can never have too much of something you didn't need in the first place.

Xaxaxe
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:58 pm

Okay, that was the world's shortest boycott!

But you know what? I didn't do anything wrong here; I shouldn't feel like I have to leave. Describing some 4e game mechanics in a thread labeled 4e is not a crime.

This whole discussion is just so off the rails, though. I really have some very mixed emotions about even participating in it at all. I'd delete 'em if I could, but the best I'm going to be able to do is just edit my posts down to nothing. How's that for a "marketing plan?" :roll:

I will now go back in time and offer up my original thoughts on 4e ... I think this will help get this discussion back on track:

In November of 2007, Xaxaxe wrote:4.0 will suck harder than a black hole. It will be an event horizon from which fun cannot escape.

Booyah! There we go; back on topic.

Busman
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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:06 am

X, don't edit your responses, and don't worry about leaving. Your views are fine, don't feel like you are being persecuted. I, for one, was happy you shared your experience with the new edition.

Xaxaxe
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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:29 am

Thank you for saying so, but I just feel better doing it this way.

Persecuted? No, I don't honestly feel that way. At the end of the day, it's just a disagreement ... although I'm pretty upset with this whole "marketing" thing, especially when it seemed pretty clear that I was offering up a number of criticisms of the System I've Sworn Not To Name.

But, overall, it's just a disagreement, likely to be forgotten as soon as BadMike takes a critical hit in the groin from a one-eyed kobold later this summer.

As I've edited my earlier posts, I've been surprised to discover that there were more of them than I remembered. I have to ask myself: did I go overboard? I have to at least be open to that possibility. My intent was to describe the one session I played, noting my surprised relief that it wasn't nearly as bad as 3e, and maybe offering up a quick take on some of the notable pros and cons. But it's looking like I could have stopped earlier than I did. Maybe; I don't know.

I think I'll just settle for mixed feelings on this one. Deimos is right about one thing: none of the discussion offered up anything in the way of D&D collecting. I felt like it had its moments, though, so, in the end, I don't know what to think.

No biggie; I'd rather move on than eventually type something I can't take back.

Agent Cooper
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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:20 am

FormCritic wrote:
What if more than one person has "grabbed" a target? Does the opposed check apply to all persons "grabbing," or just one at a time, one per round? Or, do I make as many attempts to get loose in my action as there are "grabbers" who are currently"grabbing" the opponent who "grabbed" me in their actions?

Is there an "immobilize" check to follow "grab?"

Does "grab" provoke an attack of opportunity and does a person who has been "grabbed" get to resist new "grabbers?"

Suppose multiple people have "grabbed" each other? Are there bonuses or penalties for multiple "grabs" and "counter-grabs?"

Can I, for instance, "join a grab" for free?

Can I "grab" opponent #2 if opponent #1 already has me "grabbed?"

If a dual "grab" and "counter-grab" has taken place, is there now an opposed "wrestle" action that involves throws, pins or other maneuvers?

What if I want to just ignore the "grabbing" opponents who have "grabbed" me and swing away? Is there, for instance a "drag" action for either "grabbers" or those who have been "grabbed?"

Obviously, you have attempted to use the 3.x Grapple Rules without the numbing effect of alcoholic beverages, and have been emotionally scarred by the experience. Merely perusing this work while sober causes an automatic loss of 5 points of INT, and triggers a Will Save versus Insanity at a -10 penalty.

deimos3428
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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:26 am

Badmike wrote:Deimos, why care if someone wants to flush $65 down the toilet?

You're right, Mike. I wonder why I bother trying to help people at all, because it never does any good.

WotC should by all rights be topping the Shady Dealers thread -- just because they have a marketing team changes nothing. They've conned more people* than the Coug ever will, and we warn people that don't know better about the Coug all the time. I suppose he could change his spots too.

Zenfinite wrote:Bear in mind that your opinions (on this matter) would probably be held in higher esteem if you weren't so obviously biased, you know?

I'm quite happy with the level of esteem in which my opinions are held around here. One day you might be so lucky.

Xaxaxe wrote:we talk about playing D&D here all the time, and it's just wishful thinking to think otherwise. How many anecdotes has Mike B. told over the years? (I'm not saying it's a bad thing! Most of them are pretty funny!)

Duke, I didn't see your post before you edited it out. From the snippet someone quoted which remains, yeah we talk about playing D&D all the time. In passing. Anecdotally. We don't make 20-something page threads about how great 1E is, it just doesn't happen. Maybe it should, I don't know. That sounds more like Dragonsfoot.org to me, really.

I'm not sure why you left. I had probably gone to sleep at that point so I missed all the fireworks. (The marketing bit wasn't even directed at you. Perhaps I've been reading way too many conspiracy theories, but the level of enthusiasm with which some others, particularly newer members, were jumping on the 4E bandwagon really seemed suspicious to me. Where's bclarkie when you need him, eh?) Anyway, welcome back, new day.

I hope you don't go away, as you're one of the more reasonable monkeys on the site. I thought about throwing in the towel a couple of times too, so let's all dial it back a notch, ok?

serleran wrote:It is odd how many forums have longstanding members clash over something as simple as a numbered edition. Quite sad, really. I hope things will cool down and relax to the state they were at before whatever happened happened... but, if not, then it was nice to have you around as long as you were here - I don't plan on going anywhere.

Good advice, and good observation. And also one of the reasons I'd tried rather unsuccessfully to quell the 4E discussion several pages ago.

* With rather shoddy, over-hyped product, I mean. As far as I know, they've never "lost" an M-Bag. They may or may not describe 4E as being VGC, I'm not sure on that one.

Agent Cooper
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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:49 am

"We don't make 20-something page threads about how great 1E is"

Why not? It IS great! Isn't that part of the reason we collect this stuff?

MadMaligor
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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:52 am

To see this post morph from pre 4E opinions to some post 4E description, and a side order of forum drama actually warms the heart. It certainly shows the passion for OD&D/1st Ed that I would say almost all of us have, and the curiosity that a new edition of brings out in some of the older folk (myself included). Nothing wrong with either of those two.

Keeping 4E restricted to a post or two seems appropriate, and I would actually disagree with you on the collection thing Xax, heck Mike said it best, 4E has more collectibility out of the box than 3E ever was or will be. Interestingly enough there are even rumored to be off print PHB, DMG, MM covers that were run but changed before release (something that if true you can bet will have collection value).

In fact I would speculate that with the number of old schoolers coming out of their perspective lairs to give 4E a go, it shows that its got an appeal. I certainly have found it to be a blast after 5 sessions, much more so than 3.5. Having played enough of 3.5 to know I would rather stab myself in the eyes with a plastic mini, I feel the comparison is fair, as 4th will have a place to stay at our gaming sessions where 3.5 did not, and I have yet to feel the need to reach for a mini and blind myself (although I did get close on the whole AoE 3 dimension damage thing when using the appendix, who ever was responsible for the appendix needs to be tossed on a hill of fire ants).

Healing surges are no longer the mystic make or break for our group as we have now experienced enough to see the balance issues they revolve around. They are wierd and the one true divergance from classic rules. The argument for saying "4E is not D&D" should center around HS's, not minis. To be frank, it really does surprise me that so many old schoolers see minis as somehow not an integral part of the game, much like the dice, pencil, and paper we all use. Its right there on the white box many of you love and cherish. Yes you dont have to use them, but hell, you dont have to use dice either. I have run sessions without ever once rolling the dice. I could use a deck of cards, or chits, or flip coins, or never once toss a die and just story line it from start to finish. Its my darn gaming session

Dice dont make it D&D, nor does my pencil and graph paper. D&D, for me, has always been about the roleplay set in a fantasy setting. Warriors and Wizards, Monsters and Magic.

Now, yes, 4E is much more minis dependant. But the only real dependency lies with attacks of opportunity. Take those out and you pretty much squash the need for minis. You do end up with the issue of changing the whole power option to push, pull or slide but you can easily play that in using key combat moments (like moving opponents into harms way, or getting yourself out of harms way, blocking off avenues of attack in a room or hallway, or protecting your weaker caster members, etc..).

What 4E does not have (and likely may never have) is the classic charm, and what I will call a true Mint mint version of collectability that OD&D, Basic/Expert, AD&D have.

You just cant surpass that kind of history, nostalgia, and "old school" value. Its like comparing a lithograph to an original. The litho has value but it pales in comparison. It doesnt mean that the lithograph doesnt have collectable value, many do to some degree. But like 3.5, a good chunk are seen as wall hanging garbage to a real art expert (I think its fair to say there are enough experts in the D&D collecting field here to qualify as the Sotheby's of the D&D roleplaying world).

MM

Okay, I can't help but ask, but what exactly is a "potato wedger"? - bclarkie

Zenfinite
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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:34 am

Badmike wrote:
If it was a chick, I'd be bangin' it every night, after buying it dinner and promising to respect it in the morning.....

Mike B.

Dammit I knew she wasn't looking at me the same way any more. BadMike's been at her tender mercies. *shakes the fist*

I'll get youuuuu!!

Zen

Deadlord
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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:10 pm

As was mentioned earlier, I could go through this thread and replace every instance of 4E with 3E and it would be almost a carbon copy.
Strangely enough, I ran into a player who used to be in my campaign before I moved a year and a half ago. He is eager to join the current group and play custom rules, because, according to him, both 3E and 4E are fun at first and rapidly grow boring, once the thrill of constant combat wears off. He also expressed disillusionment with the notion of elite classes and whatnot. He is 25, BTW.
I guess it depends largely on the age of the player. A 13 year old is going to want to have a dragonborn paladin/master mage/rogue with Quintuple Death Chops and Instant Healall. Anyone that has progressed beyond the zit-popping stage is probably going to want something more realistic.

If you hit a Rowsdower, you get to keep it.

Badmike
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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:53 pm

MadMaligor wrote:Keeping 4E restricted to a post or two seems appropriate, and I would actually disagree with you on the collection thing Xax, heck Mike said it best, 4E has more collectibility out of the box than 3E ever was or will be. Interestingly enough there are even rumored to be off print PHB, DMG, MM covers that were run but changed before release (something that if true you can bet will have collection value).

It will be interesting to see if some of the already ridiculous prices on 4E will keep up...it is an unusual thing, though. The only 3E stuff even remotely collectible was the rare DCC stuff.

In fact I would speculate that with the number of old schoolers coming out of their perspective lairs to give 4E a go, it shows that its got an appeal. I certainly have found it to be a blast after 5 sessions, much more so than 3.5. Having played enough of 3.5 to know I would rather stab myself in the eyes with a plastic mini, I feel the comparison is fair, as 4th will have a place to stay at our gaming sessions where 3.5 did not, and I have yet to feel the need to reach for a mini and blind myself (although I did get close on the whole AoE 3 dimension damage thing when using the appendix, who ever was responsible for the appendix needs to be tossed on a hill of fire ants).

Well, it doesn't appear to be a kick in the nuts with hobnail boots, like 3E, so that's nice...

Healing surges are no longer the mystic make or break for our group as we have now experienced enough to see the balance issues they revolve around. They are wierd and the one true divergance from classic rules. The argument for saying "4E is not D&D" should center around HS's, not minis. To be frank, it really does surprise me that so many old schoolers see minis as somehow not an integral part of the game, much like the dice, pencil, and paper we all use. Its right there on the white box many of you love and cherish. Yes you dont have to use them, but hell, you dont have to use dice either. I have run sessions without ever once rolling the dice. I could use a deck of cards, or chits, or flip coins, or never once toss a die and just story line it from start to finish. Its my darn gaming session Dice dont make it D&D, nor does my pencil and graph paper. D&D, for me, has always been about the roleplay set in a fantasy setting. Warriors and Wizards, Monsters and Magic.

Honestly, we have NEVER gamed without minis, except for maybe 2-3 sessions in the beginning when we didn't have any. I'm the kind of guy that think people who DONT use minis are whacked. And I may be in the minority of old-schoolers, but I really like the new painted minis...mostly because they are finally proportional, they weight a quarter as much, they don't break like lead minis, and they are PAINTED....something I never had the skill to do. I always look askew at people who rant and rave about minis, Dwarven Forge, battle mats, laptops at the table, etc, as if they are having some sort of a "purer" experience by not using them. Get over yourselves, dudes. You want a "purer" experience? Why aren't you wiping your ass with branches and leaves, since toilet paper is such a drag? Sheesh. Yeh, call me "pro" minis....

What 4E does not have (and likely may never have) is the classic charm, and what I will call a true Mint mint version of collectability that OD&D, Basic/Expert, AD&D have. You just cant surpass that kind of history, nostalgia, and "old school" value. Its like comparing a lithograph to an original. The litho has value but it pales in comparison. It doesnt mean that the lithograph doesnt have collectable value, many do to some degree. But like 3.5, a good chunk are seen as wall hanging garbage to a real art expert (I think its fair to say there are enough experts in the D&D collecting field here to qualify as the Sotheby's of the D&D roleplaying world).

Obviously nostalgia plays a huge part. I admit I dissmissed everything after 1999 as crap, but I am coming out of my "grumpy old man" stage and beginning to branch out. One thing that opened my eyes was my first online gaming experience last year....I really enjoyed it, and by using Skype it was about 80% like the real thing, enough for me to look forward to gaming in the future even if I can't find players at hand, with the outlook that the experience will only improve with time. Obviously new editions are going to cater to the younger, hipper members of our litle clique, but as Deadlord points out there is always a chance that someone weaned on 3/4E will someday branch out. The trick is to get them in the door, and if 3/4E do that for someone that wouldn't have gamed otherwise, I don't have any problems.

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
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Agent Cooper
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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:11 pm

I think collectibility is wildly subjective. If you don't think 4th or 3rd are collectible, well, maybe they aren't. To you. But think about this:

Somewhere out there is a 9 year old kid who's going to buy his first player's handbook today. This kid and his buddies will play D&D for the first time, maybe they'll play all summer long. And you can bet your bottom dollar that in 25 years he's going to remember that summer, and that dog-eared and pizza stained 4th Ed players handbook that his mom threw away when he went to college is going to have plenty of sentimental nostalgia value for him.

Xaxaxe
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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:12 pm

Deadlord39 wrote:... once the thrill of constant combat wears off.

This would exactly describe most of the FIRST-EDITION groups in my area Back In The Day.

This really would be a better discussion if we could just stop pretending that 3e/4e somehow magically stripped all of the role-playing out of D&D and turned it into nothing but a dice-fest. That shit has been going on since 1975, and we all know it.

Stating the painfully obvious: it's the DM and players who are going to determine the level of role-plying or roll-playing. The number on the edition or the system being used is not the deciding factor.

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