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Shipping Charges (trollandtoad)
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deimos3428
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:33 am

ExTSR wrote:T&T buys things at the auction, pays standard prices and fees (no sweetheart deals), and the fees go to The Partnership (like everyone else's fees).

If you're running an auction (or are an employee of an organization doing the same) you shouldn't be bidding on items in said auction. It's an obvious conflict of interest.

I don't know if that's what is going on here or not, but it certainly sounds like it from the posts. I have zero stake in this as I don't go to GenCon or do business with Troll and Toad. However, common sense should apply.

Ector
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:41 am

It's definitely worse for buyers to have T&T bidding, but really not much worse than the other dealers who hang out in the auction the entire con. Of course the flip side is that it's often better for the sellers having them there.

I do think that if T&T and the company that runs the auction are really separate that the giant T&T banner on the stage should go away. It certainly gives the appearance of something improper going on having that banner there and having guys in the audience wearing shirts with the same graphics.

Mars
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:45 am

FormCritic wrote:If you got snarked by Troll and Toad then talk about that.

I tried buying a bulk lot off of Troll and Toad through Ebay and their store.

1) They lied to me about being able to combined purchases.

2) Ebay limits the number of items per invoice to 40. T&T would not ship items from different invoices together even though they were paid together.

3) Turn over time to get credit for traded in items was 3 weeks (after they received the package) instead of a couple days like their website states.

4) Their communcation was horrendous - email and phone calls to them almost everyday for about a month. Each time I called, it was like they had no clue who I was or what the problem was. They would tell me one thing (on what they would do) then do something completely different.

They are among the most uncaring and useless store to deal with. Items for the most part were as described except for some that got damaged during shipping.

Pipswich
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:30 am

There are key differences between:

A conflict of interest
A perceived conflict of interest
A declared conflict of interest
An undeclared conflict of interest

Troll and Toad appears to have no conflict of interest if two different companies are involved.

Troll and Toad may or may not charge for the Charity auction, However, if they do they have a right to run a business and they do not appear to suggest that Troll and Toad is a charity. Hence, no impropriety apparent.

By putting up a banner and wearing shirts with their logos, Troll and Toad advertises their business and guarantees that there is no undeclared conflict of interest possible. (However, they do not seem to declare a conflict of interest... as would be expected, since there does not appear to be an actual conflict of interest).

I still don't understand why some of you will assume personal liability risk by accusing people or businesses of things you can't prove.

Granted, if you had a bad ebay experience, left negative feedback, and it wasn't challenged, you "probably' safely discuss the matter if your negative was uncontested. But, without proof, speech that harms a person or business is not protected.

Pipswich Peddles (and trades) for his collection!
http://stores.ebay.com/Pipswich-Peddles

Invincible Overlord
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:59 am

deimos3428 wrote:If you're running an auction (or are an employee of an organization doing the same) you shouldn't be bidding on items in said auction. It's an obvious conflict of interest.

I don't know if that's what is going on here or not, but it certainly sounds like it from the posts. I have zero stake in this as I don't go to GenCon or do business with Troll and Toad. However, common sense should apply.

The "Experts" that help run the auction and sell the items also may have an interest in the items being sold. This is why the auction is run as well as it has been, aside from the things already discussed; i.e. non-standard items being sold at the con.

If they weren't allowed to bid on the items at all, you'd end up with some professional auctioneer (i.e. Origins) who didn't know what he was selling, which would not give proper service to the sellers (giving them the best profit possible), or the buyers (giving them the best information on the items they're trying to purchase).

RPGâ€™s, D&D in particular has had a major influence in my life. Itâ€™s bonded me together with life long friends...itâ€™s that bond in life not just as friends, but in our jokes, our mannerisms, and what we find funny. Invincible Overlord

Mars
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:14 am

Pipswich wrote:I still don't understand why some of you will assume personal liability risk by accusing people or businesses of things you can't prove.

Personal liability risk? I am relating my experience with T&T - I think even you Americans have something called freedom of speech. If they have thoughts about trying to sue me then I say go ahead. I have a phone bill and plenty of emails where I ask a specific question such as "Will you combine shipping between purchases from Ebay and your store website?". There response being,"Yes we will". Then after buying winning their auctions, they refuse to do it. I even forwarded their earlier response back to them and they refused to comment on it aside from saying that is not our policy. Their policy seems to be say anything to make the sale.

They are the most ignorant people I have ever dealt with. I was so fed up with them that I didn't even contact them about the items that were damaged during shipping because it wouldn't have done any good and would have wasted another month of my time. If you want more examples of their stupidity and lies I can provide more.

Blackmoor
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:27 am

I left them a neg once, it was for a nm Misty which was actually a written in piece of dogcrap

I E-mail with no reply then called visa and put in a dispute. Overall the experince has left me to never buy from them unless I can see the item first

On the other hand at Gencon I actually brought about 175 items to sell in the auction store. About 50 or so of the items sold and at the end Jon from Troll and Taod offered to buy the rest of the stuff for pretty close to what I was asking on the sticker (with no fees) so I made out really good on that deal. I netted close to $1100 for that

Games can get you through times of no money but money can not get you through times of no games!!

Pipswich
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:29 am

Our freedom of speech is protected.
Our rights end where others begin.

If we harm others, physically, or otherwise, we are responsible for our actions.

Words can harm. Words do harm. When we use them to harm we can be held accountable. If we say or print things that may harm, we have to be prepared to defend our statements with proof. That is fair.

I have no issue with people talking specifics that impacted them personally and for which they have records and first person accounts. Keeping business records is a good idea. Especially if you intend to post about negative experiences on a forum where those you call out for bad behavior will not only see it, but can identify you.

I do find it tiring to see endless unsubstantiated attacks presenting tertiary or no evidence of fact. They come across as mean spirited, jealous and petty. They are also usually actionable.

Mainly, in spite of the fact that I definitely do not share opinions or world view with several routine posters, I expect that as is usually the case with gamers, if I meet them in person, sit down and game with them, that it will be an enjoyable experience and we may walk away friends. I hate to see friends harm themselves and some of these discussions have the potential to be self destructive.

Now, again... if a person, has left negative feedback, kept copies of letters you sent complaining, sent emails, kept telephone logs, and want to post about your experiences, you are "probably" very secure doing so. But throwing around haphazard guesses about legality, ethics, conflicts of interest, bad business practices, etc... will require proof if anyone gets called on it. Causing someone or an entity harm, is a bad idea, especially when they clearly have the resources to defend themselves.

Please note that I am not an attorney and can not and am not providing legal advice.

I encourage anyone to google "protected speech" "unprotected speech" "libel" "slander" "punitive damages", etc. You may be surprised at how unprotected harmful speech actually is in all four countries.

Pipswich Peddles (and trades) for his collection!
http://stores.ebay.com/Pipswich-Peddles

deimos3428
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:42 am

Invincible Overlord wrote:The "Experts" that help run the auction and sell the items also may have an interest in the items being sold. This is why the auction is run as well as it has been, aside from the things already discussed; i.e. non-standard items being sold at the con.

If they weren't allowed to bid on the items at all, you'd end up with some professional auctioneer (i.e. Origins) who didn't know what he was selling, which would not give proper service to the sellers (giving them the best profit possible), or the buyers (giving them the best information on the items they're trying to purchase).

And you'd avoid this whole debacle outright, wouldn't you? Someone interested in bidding on the items has no business being anywhere near the operational side of things. That just leads to accusations of corruption -- as we've seen.

The "experts" argument doesn't really hold any water, either. We're talking about auctioning D&D collectibles, fer chrissakes. There are no experts. If you can auction livestock, you can auction this stuff. There should always be a disinterested third party running such things when money is involved.

Blackmoor
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:45 am

I really doubt that warning people about bad customer service and rip-offs is going to cause a lawsuit. If that were the case we would all be in jail for talking about politics, Wal Mart , China etc

Games can get you through times of no money but money can not get you through times of no games!!

Invincible Overlord
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:11 pm

deimos3428 wrote:And you'd avoid this whole debacle outright, wouldn't you? Someone interested in bidding on the items has no business being anywhere near the operational side of things. That just leads to accusations of corruption -- as we've seen.

The "experts" argument doesn't really hold any water, either. We're talking about auctioning D&D collectibles, fer chrissakes. There are no experts. If you can auction livestock, you can auction this stuff. There should always be a disinterested third party running such things when money is involved.

Then sir, we'll have to agree to disagree.

When someone like Frank Mentzer says this is a 2nd printing Brown Box OCE, then it has a significantly higher value to me than some professional auctioneer who'd take the box and just put it up in the air like some sort of crap shoot.

For example, last year at Origins I bought an older dragon magazine which I tried to re-sell at the following Gencon (I bought it for around ten dollars...). The sale was rejected because there was a page missing from the magazine, and lost out on much more than ten dollars.

This error would have been caught (was actually caught) at Gencon, because there were people that took the time to look at the item.

Furthermore, although there have been acusations of corruption, I don't think that this process is corrupt at all. Flawed perhaps (T&T Bidding on said items), but that doesn't make it corrupt. It is not a professional auction (unlike a Christie's Auction or some sort of auction house), and they don't claim to be one.

The volunteers are just that - volunteers. Without them, there's no auction at Gencon at all. Really what do they get - a badge and maybe some shared room space (which is nice, but you're at the beck and call of someone else). Let them continue to bid on stuff.

I will be returning next year to Gencon, and I will be bidding against the T&T dude just like this year. Unless I can slip something into his drink and get him to fall asleep at the right time... :wink:

misterspock
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:23 pm

Invincible Overlord wrote:I will be returning next year to Gencon, and I will be bidding against the T&T dude just like this year. Unless I can slip something into his drink and get him to fall asleep at the right time...

How about a Vulcan nerve pinch?
PDT_Armataz_01_34

deimos3428
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:25 pm

Invincible Overlord wrote:Then sir, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough, it was not my intention to start an argument. I'd also agree that proper description/display of auction items is paramount, much like on eBay and anywhere else. Where I disagree is that "experts" are required to do the auction, as anyone in the market for a 2nd printing can surely identify one themselves.

Prufrock
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:52 pm

Damn....all this and I just wanted folks here to know that (pipswich please read the following carefully) Troll and Toad were attempting to rip people off with outrageous shipping and handling.

Martin

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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:14 pm

Mars wrote:
I tried buying a bulk lot off of Troll and Toad through Ebay and their store.

1) They lied to me about being able to combined purchases.

2) Ebay limits the number of items per invoice to 40. T&T would not ship items from different invoices together even though they were paid together.

3) Turn over time to get credit for traded in items was 3 weeks (after they received the package) instead of a couple days like their website states.

4) Their communcation was horrendous - email and phone calls to them almost everyday for about a month. Each time I called, it was like they had no clue who I was or what the problem was. They would tell me one thing (on what they would do) then do something completely different.

They are among the most uncaring and useless store to deal with. Items for the most part were as described except for some that got damaged during shipping.

See - this is a legitimate complaint about something that actually happened.

I was not at the GenCon auction. So far, I have not read anything about the auction to indicate that Troll and Toad has done wrong.

Whether you have freedom of speech is irrelevant. What you have is a basic code of conduct that says you should treat others with courtesy and fairness. Just because no one can see your face does not mean that the code no longer applies.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

Pipswich
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:40 pm

I think people should report their personal experiences good or bad. I think that's part of what the site is for.

I observe that attacking (harming) others without first party knowledge and proof is unwise.

I note that business can not happen without conflicts of interest in most arenas. What is at issue is how conflicts are managed, if they are disclosed and if they are maintained at a professional level.

In niche markets, like this one, it has effectively been demonstrated in almost every collecting category that "interested party" auctioneers will routinely get a higher price for goods. Some auctioneers are corrupt, cook the books, manipulate placement of objects to their benefit, fail to pay consigners, etc. Most, are simply pressed to sell a ton of stuff in a short period of time trying to keep an audience paying attention; it's no mean task.

Accusing T&T of being "interested" is irrelevant. We all know it. If on the other hand you are accusing them of improprieties (which also happens here) they can force you to prove them. Some of what people state here can be proven, and some of it I do not believe can be.

Without knowing them other than as an occasional customer... and based primarily on what I read here... they not only seem to retain attorneys, but to have licensed professional auctioneers employed who presumably know and are responsible for knowing their business, law and ethics. Attacking them on those grounds seems foolhardy, if they chose to take offense.

I am not intending to restrict discourse, rather to cause people to think about what they can prove before they make wild assumptions and accusations. The accused does not have the burden of proof, even on the internet.

And, if people posting are just a bit more careful, reading the posts will be more productive, the opinions expressed will be taken more seriously and the value of the site as a resource for us all will consequently increase.

It looks like a win/win since people can both reduce their personal liability and increase their credibility by being a bit more prudent.

Same goes for the hazing (running off of newbies) that the site is prone to. It still amazes me that as much as many of us care about the game and have invested in collecting, that potential new collectors and/or vendors often get scorched here. Sometimes it feels like people need to read Lord of the Flies again. When community standards devolve to something less than civilized, we all suffer, as does this hobby.

Pipswich Peddles (and trades) for his collection!
http://stores.ebay.com/Pipswich-Peddles

ExTSR
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:16 pm

(OT yet again, regarding Auctions)

Mars wrote:Value of Items Sold $127,562. This arrangement would mean that the partnership makes about $36,634.40 to run the auction.

I don't follow; 15% of $127,562 is under $20k. And to be more precise in the phraseology, change 'makes' to 'has gross receipts'. From that, deduct:

travel expenses for The Partnership
free rooms for all senior staff (about $90 a night per person)
partial room expense for many other volunteers (about $50 a night)
food & beverages for volunteers (we eat a lot, and I often make sandwichs in lieu of dinner)
convention admission for every staffer
auctioneer supplies (including bid cards)
business supplies (paper, printer cartridges, merchantcard fees, etc)
computer services (if necessary, tho Carson handles most of this)
incidental costs
...and convention services (George Fern & Co., the service that handles this convention and many others too; call it $50 per hour per FernMan plus table, drape, & chair rentals, electric, etc etc, plus squeeze)

Seems to me that you can pay a lot of volunteers for that kinds of money. For example if you were paying $10 an hour and the auction ran for 16 hours a day then this could employ 57 people.

Volunteers are unpaid (by definition). The actual staffing total is higher than 57.

jcp wrote:without them, there would be NO auction

Um, not correct, sorry. When Fonarow retired, I put in a bid to take over the auction; the bid from The Partnership was accepted instead. If they hadn't've gotten it I'd be running it.

deimos3428 wrote:There are no experts. If you can auction livestock, you can auction this stuff.

Rather amusing, since I've been an expert in this field for more than 20 years.

GAMA had the same attitude, so I walked out on the Origins game auction. Within 2 years their gross dropped from $50,000+ to $500-, and their net went from black to red... VERY red (and it still hasn't recovered).

There are a lot of details to learn in this field. Speed in the auction (a necessity with that many items) is dependent on knowing the market. For example, a livestock auctioneer picks up a module, tries to start it at $20 -- and may have to backtrack to sell it for its proper $5. Or a different module starts the same way but sells for $50, because it's semi-rare. Similarly, a hardback may go for $5 or $200+ and you'd better know which is which AND tell the audience, lest you screw the seller through your own ignorance.

Although the hobby game industry is smallish, there are literally thousands of items to learn about and keep track of. (And that's just the RPG side; don't get me started on Wargames or vintage collectible Boardgames.)

Invincible Overlord (v2) wrote:When someone like Frank Mentzer says this is a 2nd printing Brown Box OCE, then it has a significantly higher value to me

If I ever DO claim that a Brown is an OCE, you can bury me before dawn.

ashmire13
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:33 pm

Prufrock wrote:(pipswich please read the following carefully) Troll

'nuff said... :lol:

But you know he doesn't... just an excuse to incite a row and start random veiled threats about law (again), snide, veiled comments about certain individuals and their views and dull over stated posts.

Damn, I've done it again. Do not feed the troll.... :wink:

Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

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