D&D/AD&D Retro clones - Why? • Page 3 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

The Acaeum Forums • Collecting General

D&D/AD&D Retro clones - Why?
	Page 3 of 5 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Author

deimos3428
Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:07 am

g026r wrote:with a properly produced PDF it's the simplest type of reference available: one with which you can do a near-instantaneous full-text search.

Well, it might be about preference, but it's also about technology. A book truly is an amazing analog interface. A PDF is a rather crude digital approximation of a book. You can't throw it at anyone.

Full-text search is fast, but in my experience it is no match for an old-school DM that knows the material. We've probably all met people that can quote them verbatim.

Besides, you have to know what you're searching for in the first place, which means reading and recalling the book's layout and content. Reading PDFs (or anything else) on a screen is a relatively miserable experience, and one that results in poor retention -- thus the need for a full-text search, I suppose.

ashmire13
Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3549
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Last Visit: May 16, 2026
Location: Wandering aimlessly on the 8th level down...

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:12 am

bbarsh wrote:Crap that thing is 400 pages long...

It was more a case of looking through than reading cover to cover... :lol:

Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

ashmire13
Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3549
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Last Visit: May 16, 2026
Location: Wandering aimlessly on the 8th level down...

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:14 am

I must admit, I never got into reading the rule books during play... But then the group was small and relatively low level so perhaps there was never the need to check rules.

On the flip of that, encumbrance never really came into things and the suchlike so perhaps I never got into the rules issues that needing the books involved.

Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

Shingen
Active Collector

Posts: 92
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
Last Visit: Sep 04, 2010

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:07 pm

Just to reiterate and clarify: Legal protection, price, and organization.

Legality

While game systems are not copyrightable, their presentation is; weird, but legally true. Also, names like Dungeons and Dragons are trademarked and protected as well. So while I may be able to produce stuff for AD&D 1e, marketing it with any of the names, like D&D (owned by WotC) or using the rules details as described in their books (mind flayers, beholders, name levels, descriptions of stats, etc.) can be an infringement.

As such, you get the Retro-clones. These are first and foremost a legal shield, as stated above. By using the OGL to render d20 as a previous edition of the game, you have a legal version of the rules everyone can use. I can write for OSRIC as much as I want, and since it is 1e, my stuff is 1e compatible. It basically allows gaming companies to produce supplements and rules for out of print but protected games.

They charge for supplements, because they are still game companies or authors; the core system is free.

Price

And while I can get the BECMI set or 1e Core books on eBay for reasonable prices ( I nabbed an extra 1e PHb from an early printing for 8 bucks the other day), OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, et al are totally free.

Free is good, but the real benefit of free is that people are willing to give it a try, because there is no risk in doing so. This has led to the Old School Renaissance, because new players and old have gotten the rules for free, remember how much they loved them, and began playing with them again. It is easy to induce people "looking for a system" to try the retro clones, because they are free.

Organization

The writing of RPG books has advanced immeasurably in the past 20 years. Additionally, the understanding of how people learn games has grown. As such, these retro-clones are more clear, easier to learn, and better organized than their fathers.

Many people who learned D&D in the 70s and early 80s can attest that the only way to really learn was to play with others, because the books were often poor teachers for the uninitiated. Retro-clones keep this in mind.

Also, with 30 years of hindsight, things can be put in better context and be clearer.

For example, while OSRIC is a mammoth 400 pages, it includes material from all the core books, and does so in a more organized manner.

So those are some reasons. I am not saying they are great reasons, but they are reasons why Retro-clones are popular.

JasonZavoda
Long-Winded Collector
JG Valuation Board

Posts: 3823
Joined: Jul 12, 2007
Last Visit: Dec 17, 2021

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:17 pm

Shingen wrote:Just to reiterate and clarify: Legal protection, price, and organization.

Legality

While game systems are not copyrightable, their presentation is; weird, but legally true. Also, names like Dungeons and Dragons are trademarked and protected as well. So while I may be able to produce stuff for AD&D 1e, marketing it with any of the names, like D&D (owned by WotC) or using the rules details as described in their books (mind flayers, beholders, name levels, descriptions of stats, etc.) can be an infringement.

As such, you get the Retro-clones. These are first and foremost a legal shield, as stated above. By using the OGL to render d20 as a previous edition of the game, you have a legal version of the rules everyone can use. I can write for OSRIC as much as I want, and since it is 1e, my stuff is 1e compatible. It basically allows gaming companies to produce supplements and rules for out of print but protected games.

They charge for supplements, because they are still game companies or authors; the core system is free.

Price

And while I can get the BECMI set or 1e Core books on eBay for reasonable prices ( I nabbed an extra 1e PHb from an early printing for 8 bucks the other day), OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, et al are totally free.

Free is good, but the real benefit of free is that people are willing to give it a try, because there is no risk in doing so. This has led to the Old School Renaissance, because new players and old have gotten the rules for free, remember how much they loved them, and began playing with them again. It is easy to induce people "looking for a system" to try the retro clones, because they are free.

Organization

The writing of RPG books has advanced immeasurably in the past 20 years. Additionally, the understanding of how people learn games has grown. As such, these retro-clones are more clear, easier to learn, and better organized than their fathers.

Many people who learned D&D in the 70s and early 80s can attest that the only way to really learn was to play with others, because the books were often poor teachers for the uninitiated. Retro-clones keep this in mind.

Also, with 30 years of hindsight, things can be put in better context and be clearer.

For example, while OSRIC is a mammoth 400 pages, it includes material from all the core books, and does so in a more organized manner.

So those are some reasons. I am not saying they are great reasons, but they are reasons why Retro-clones are popular.

Popular?

My question was why they exist at all. What data do you have on their popularity?

robertsconley
Prolific Collector

Posts: 205
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Last Visit: Jun 16, 2026

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:59 pm

JasonZavoda wrote:What I'm wondering is why? Is it about creating a new game system? Or a game system based on D&D/AD&D or about publishing AD&D material (like Fullerton has done) and not getting chased down by the WoTC enforcers?

It started with C&C when a split occured over how close it should be to AD&D. Troll Lords opted not to make a clone but system that played similar to AD&D.

OSRIC was started as a publisher's resource. A guide for supplement writers to know what portions of AD&D could be found under the Open Game License. It was then changed to a full rulebook after many people requsted it.

Basic Fantasy Roleplaying Game was developed as a better D&D by the Author. It is a mix of AD&D, D&D, and 3rd edition. It is closer to the original than Castles & Crusades.

Labyrinth Lord was designed a full rulebook and be a emulation of Moldavy D&D as OSRIC emulates AD&D.

Swords & Wizardry was done for the 1974 rules both with the supplements incorporated (The Core Rules) and without supplements incorporated (The White Box Edition). Basically the White Box version can be played with just a d20 and a d6. While the Core rules uses all the traditional dice. And yes it is as confusing as it sounds although the rule books themselve are excellent.

You can read up on the other here http://www.retroroleplaying.com/content/retro-clones

The retro clones exist for several reason

1) Because of the D20 System Reference Document and the Open Game License nearly all the terms needed to recreate a AD&D/D&D rulebook is avaliable. While in the United States Games rules can't be copyrighted when most people try to publish a copy of game they get nailed on branding and trade dress. Using D20 SRD avoids that issues as long as you use the Open Game license and avoid copying the original text verbatim.

2) As a publisher resource to create modules and supplements. Not every AD&D/D&D term or rule can be extracted from the D20 System Reference Document. For example Carrion Crawlers, Beholders, Mind Flayers, etc.

3) As a book that you can buy a new copy of. Since Wizards yank all the PDFs off, the retro clones are the only legal source for the older rules.

4) They are often better organized and better written as far as learning the rules. Especially in the case of Swords & Wizards vs the 1974 rules. Every people have recounted using OSRIc as a reference during a AD&D game.

5) It has turned out that some of these books are getting back into the distribution network starting with Labyrinth Lord. This means a person can walk into a game store and by D&D again.

robertsconley
Prolific Collector

Posts: 205
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Last Visit: Jun 16, 2026

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:03 pm

JasonZavoda wrote:
Popular?

My question was why they exist at all. What data do you have on their popularity?

Sales by the individual authors. The interest of distributors in carrying one or more of the Retro Clones. My own experience with Points of Light is probably a poor example as it marketed to all edition of D&D including the most recent. But it had sales in the high hundreds and it is a GM only product. Fight On! has a couple of hundred sales as well that was given to me by the publisher.

While not spectacular in relation to what Wizards or Paizo does the important thing is that it is growing.

robertsconley
Prolific Collector

Posts: 205
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Last Visit: Jun 16, 2026

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:07 pm

JasonZavoda wrote:You still are unlikely to make much money doing it.

For most of the people involved I get the feeling they would be doing this anyway. So why not go the extra mile and make something professional, useful and that you can be proud of doing. The extra cash is nice but not the sole motivation. Certainly that is my case.

Remember unlike prior decades the cost of bringing this stuff out to other and even to print is several orders of magnitude lower. Most are just investing the time they already spend.

You yourself could type up some notes, scan in some maps, format it and sell it on lulu and RPGNow within weeks or a month. I know been on this board for a while you can probably find a couple people to help with maps and art.

I am not saying you should be doing this but pointing how easy it is get started these days.

robertsconley
Prolific Collector

Posts: 205
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Last Visit: Jun 16, 2026

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:19 pm

bbarsh wrote:Crap that thing is 400 pages long...

I find for longer items a private project on Lulu is the cheaper way to go even with shipping thrown in. And if you have two or more things you want to print out you can combine shipping.

JasonZavoda
Long-Winded Collector
JG Valuation Board

Posts: 3823
Joined: Jul 12, 2007
Last Visit: Dec 17, 2021

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:04 pm

robertsconley wrote:

Sales by the individual authors. The interest of distributors in carrying one or more of the Retro Clones. My own experience with Points of Light is probably a poor example as it marketed to all edition of D&D including the most recent. But it had sales in the high hundreds and it is a GM only product. Fight On! has a couple of hundred sales as well that was given to me by the publisher.

While not spectacular in relation to what Wizards or Paizo does the important thing is that it is growing.

Numbers please. What are the sales figures? Does the interest from distributors mean pre-orders? Is a couple of hundred equal to 200 hundred, 300, etc...

The general impression I have is that AD&D and Original D&D are selling extremely well on ebay. Badmike feels that the rulebook prices have sky rocketed ( though I think the sales are good, the prices seem pretty low to me).

I would say from ebay sales alone that original D&D and AD&D are popular systems. How do the retro clones compare?

Guy Fullerton
Prolific Collector

Posts: 415
Joined: Jun 13, 2008
Last Visit: Jun 04, 2026

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:55 pm

I can give data points from my very small publishing corner of the world...

JasonZavoda wrote:Numbers please. What are the sales figures?

The Fane of the Poisoned Prophecies has sold about 90 copies as of some point last month, and it had already begun to plateau and was selling only about 5 copies/month. Though I imagine that the recent Grognardia review may cause a very small spike in sales for August.

I've also been told by my distributor to expect another spike in sales of Fane once my second module is in the distribution pipeline, and the added exposure may also increase the magnitude of iterative monthly sales as well. To that end, my distributor has asked me several times for my second module, but it just isn't ready yet, and since it's really a vanity press sort of thing, I'm not publishing it until it's ready!

Does the interest from distributors mean pre-orders?

Yes. Apparently there are already store preorders for my two other upcoming modules. (Though I don't see any of that as money in my pocket.)

Is a couple of hundred equal to 200 hundred, 300, etc...

I wish! I could actually turn a (small) profit if that were the case! I *hope* to sell 100 copies of my second module in the initial sales spike in the first month.

Small publishers of retro game materials with more established creds probably see 200-300 in the initial spike.

Another data point is James Raggi's stuff. He recently mentioned having sales close to 100 units for each of three products (IIRC) in his initial spike.

But none of this may be relevant to you if you're asking about sales of the retro rules themselves, as opposed to the modules & accessories that go with them.

Guy Fullerton
Chaotic Henchmen Productions
http://www.chaotichenchmen.com/

SimperingToad
Verbose Collector

Posts: 1382
Joined: Nov 03, 2008
Last Visit: Apr 07, 2026
Location: My Pad

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:35 pm

JasonZavoda wrote:The general impression I have is that AD&D and Original D&D are selling extremely well on ebay. Badmike feels that the rulebook prices have sky rocketed ( though I think the sales are good, the prices seem pretty low to me).

I would say from ebay sales alone that original D&D and AD&D are popular systems. How do the retro clones compare?

The question is: popular with whom? Collectors? Gamers who are replacing worn out copies? New players of old systems? That's really a rhetorical question, as we can't determine such a breakdown from EBay sales.

It would be interesting to see the number of Retro games vs. the old rulebooks sold to completely new gamers, but again, that's asking the nigh impossible.

TheMilford
Prolific Collector

Posts: 721
Joined: Aug 28, 2007
Last Visit: Dec 31, 2021
Location: Brooklyn

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:37 pm

As I read this post I think:"How can WotC be SO STUPID?"

How easy it would be if they just reprinted one of their old editions... Maybe the Rule Cyclopedia or B/X sets or even the core 1E books (just add a damn index to the PHB!)

They could capitalize on all of the old-school love without having to write or design anything.

â€œRemember that generosity can be contagiousâ€¦â€ - Dave Sutherland III

eBay ID: themilford
Hidden Ebay ID: t***o

Shingen
Active Collector

Posts: 92
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
Last Visit: Sep 04, 2010

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:10 pm

JasonZavoda wrote:
Popular?

My question was why they exist at all. What data do you have on their popularity?

By Popular, I mean experiencing a small, dedicated fan base. A few small companies (Goblinoid Games, Brave Halfling Publishing) have been able to sustain profit with just these games. Not getting rich, but doing business. I would presume, based off of data I have seen, that they are in the neighborhood of some of the more well-supported Indie games.

My question is what you are angling at here, Jason. Are you just mystified by their use when you can buy the actual games? I, for one, am not saying the reasons I give are relevant for everyone, or reasons for you to use them, just the reasons they are being used by their fanbase.

I know, as a fan, that they re-sparked my interest in some of the older editions of the game, and have done so for others. I also know that they have sparked a newfound interest in some people that have never played the older versions of D&D, and I don't mind that at all. And they have also inspired people to begin supporting the older editions again, as well. All of these are "good things" to me.

Shingen
Active Collector

Posts: 92
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
Last Visit: Sep 04, 2010

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:15 pm

SimperingToad wrote:
The question is: popular with whom? Collectors? Gamers who are replacing worn out copies? New players of old systems? That's really a rhetorical question, as we can't determine such a breakdown from EBay sales.

My feeling is that there is a cross section of people looking for a reference so they don't have to use their own hard copies, gamers new to it, and gamers going back.

SimperingToad wrote:It would be interesting to see the number of Retro games vs. the old rulebooks sold to completely new gamers, but again, that's asking the nigh impossible.

Especially when the retros are downloaded for free. I would presume some people download them to look at, but not necessarily play.

JasonZavoda
Long-Winded Collector
JG Valuation Board

Posts: 3823
Joined: Jul 12, 2007
Last Visit: Dec 17, 2021

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:17 pm

Just want my AD&D

Now look at them yo-yos thats the way you do it
You play that retro-clone RPG
That aint workin thats the way you do it
Gaming for nothin and your rules for free
Now that aint workin thats the way you do it
Lemme tell ya them guys aint dumb
Maybe hit a keyboard with your little finger
Maybe hit a keyboard with your thumb

We gotta read pages of rulebooks
Hardcover rulebooks weigh a ton
We gotta read that tiny printing
We gotta read those big big words

See the little gamer with the earring and the makeup
Yeah buddy thats his own hair
That little gamer got his own goth girlfriend
That little gamer thinks he's a real Vampere

We gotta read pages of rulebooks
Hardcover rulebooks weigh a ton
We gotta read that tiny printing
We gotta read those big big words

I shoulda learned to use the computer
I shoulda learned to download those rules
Look at those gamers they don't carry no rulebooks
Man we could have some fun
And hes up there, whats that? A LARP player?
Dressed up in costume like a chimpanzee
That aint workin thats the way you do it
Get your gaming for nothin get your rules for free

We gotta read pages of rulebooks
Hardcover rulebooks weigh a ton
We gotta read that tiny printing
We gotta read those big big words

Now look at them yo-yos thats the way you do it
You play that retro-clone RPG
That aint workin thats the way you do it
Gaming for nothin and your rules for free
Gaming for nothin and rules for free

Kingofpain89
Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 4756
Joined: Oct 31, 2004
Last Visit: May 02, 2025
Location: Caddo Mills, TX

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:44 pm

Mark Knopfler would be rolling in his grave if he were dead. :roll:

You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way. - Homer Simpson

JasonZavoda
Long-Winded Collector
JG Valuation Board

Posts: 3823
Joined: Jul 12, 2007
Last Visit: Dec 17, 2021

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:45 pm

Kingofpain89 wrote:Mark Knopfler would be rolling in his grave if he were dead.

Hey, 5 minutes cut and paste. You get what you pay for.

The Acaeum Forums • Collecting General

Page 3 of 5 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5