Ian.
I am not even cloes to being an expert on anything, much less something like that...
But IMO the missing maps (even though you have Zerox Copies) would be very damaging to its overall value to anyone, especally a collector.
Based on the missing maps I would rate it in Poor to Fair condition.

My guess would be around $200-$300?
And thats all it is, a wild guess.

mbassoc2003 wrote: The rest is complete and bona fide, and is good clean condition.
 

Perhaps (due to its high rating as a rare item) as high as the low end of good condition since as you said, the rest of the module is in good condition.
Which would bring it to perhaps $400?

Poor (PR):  These items have no real value and have flaws that render them completely undesirable and/or useless.  Very large pieces may be missing, the items may have fire damage, multiple pages ripped out (and lost), the cover removed, etc.  Except for extremely valuable items, there is no collectible value to a Poor item. The Acaeum does not assign Estimated Values to the Poor condition.

Fair (FR):  Several large and significant flaws.  Pages may be detached, a module cover completely split, or the cover loose from a staple-bound book.  Large pieces may even be missing from the cover or a page (perhaps as large as ¼ the surface area).  There may be significant water damage, extensive soiling, extremely heavy creasing, large tears, etc.  The item is still complete (or mostly complete) and useable.

Please don't try to sell me a new car without the chassis or wheels and call it good condition.

I was careful not to comment on the value.  It is irrelevant to me.  But, upgrading the condition description to good or better when it is missing maps is silly.  It may well be worth a ton of money without them, but it isn't in good condition if it is incomplete, imho.  

Now, it may very well be a near mint (part) missing several (other parts).  And the near mint (part) may be worth a ton of money.  So be it.

I actually puzzled over the "currently on fire" bit for a minute....
Old age be a'creeping up.

Pipswich wrote:You may note that a book or item must be complete to qualify for good condition, there is no exception.

Except we don't use such conventions.  Even if we did, they cannot apply to all of the items we grade, as they are not all books.  A Tsojconth is not a book.  You cannot apply the book standard for such an item, and for reasons may not be immediately obvious.

In part it is our own fault because of the way our valuations are generated.  You'll note that according to the charts, any NM item is precisely the same percentage relative to it's Good counterpart.  It's not specific to the item, all items use the same interpolation and grade spread.

So if you grade a Tsojconth precisely the same way you grade a hardcover, they'd average very low indeed.  They get damaged very easily.  By itself that would be completely fine, but it creates a problem when you're interpolating your values in this fashion.  The valuation for a NM Tsojconth would be laughably through the roof.  So in some respects, we're effectively grading on a curve by not being quite as harsh on such an item in exchange for more accurate valuations across the board.

You can't upgrade something that isn't complete.

Again, I'm puzzled by the term "upgrade" as you've used it here.  When the grade has yet to be determined, that term is meaningless.

You've vastly overstated the importance of completeness in grading here, as the valuation bears out.  This is not like a car missing a chassis at all.  It's more like a car with an engine replacement.  It still fundamentally retains much of it's value even though not every part is original.

The South African Booksellers Association standards you link are essentially the same as ABAA, and ABA... and the ones I already posted.  

To be good...

"This is a misnomer as good is in fact not that good. It is the lowest grade given to a collectable copy. The book has been used and abused, but it is WHOLE. "

WHOLE!


Nonetheless, as long as the defects are described thoroughly (or illustrated) and the buyer reasonably knows what to expect, there is at least not an issue of fraud, just one of refusal to use standard conventions.

For the record, the guidelines were designed for books, catalogs, maps, folios, box sets of printed materials or any other form in which printed matter is distributed by resellers.  The earliest collecting focused on multi volume sets, atlases, illustrated folios (often without bindings), etc.

The binding issue is a messy one... and best left to specialists.  Binds are often more valuable than the book, first printing or otherwise.  They can be works of art.  Very few would prefer any book in it's original binding as opposed to a unique Kelmscott or Roycroft Press one.

Claiming 150 years of fairly standardized grading may be stretching, but possibly not.  If so, not a whole lot....  the Antiquarian Booksellers Association was formed in 1906 and antiquarian books, maps and prints were sold in the US. long before the 1880's.  They were advertised rather broadly to the public in the American Bookseller in the 1870's. Although conditions were seldom described they weren't needed as it was presumed that the advertisers would be selling their books in "new" condition.  

Over grading condition was not common until book collecting outgrew the supply of "fine" or "new" condition material.  When booksellers began printing catalogs, the standards started falling in place and booksellers clubbed up so that their customers could rely upon an "honest" or "predictable" description.  They have been in place in their basic current form longer than anyone here has been alive.  Countless millions or billions of books have sold via standard grading conventions.

I was not at all thinking in terms of the valuation board values or process when I posted, just about the book trade, in general.

However, if the sites valuation of high condition copies is simply a standard percentage adjustment based upon mediocre ones...then not a single member of any major bookseller association or appraisal association in the U.S. can knowingly use the sites valuations of copies in good or better condition.  Nor, should collectors trying to decide what rares are worth in great condition give it much credence.  For the record, IRS worthy appraisals have to be based on demonstrated comparable sales... not on formulas based on similar lesser condition examples that that are not comparable.

I, frankly, do not give a hoot what a bad condition copy sells for when deciding what to pay for a vg or fine one.  And, if a bad printing job, inferior paper, or sloppy oversized folders result in their being few if any fine copies.... the few remaining are that much more valuable to me, and likely to some others here.

deimos3428 wrote:Rares have a way of holding their value against all manner of defects.  I believe this is because they don't really lose their demand when they lose their condition; they merely shift to another market of buyers that can't afford the high condition copies.

I would suspect in this case it would sell as though it were two or three grades worse, rather than tumble down the list to Poor automatically in terms of value. An otherwise NM copy would still likely go about $500 or 600.  

You really have to rough up a rare something awful to hit the Poor range; I seem to recall a copy that was three-hole punched and still went for a considerable sum.

mbassoc2003 wrote:As an aside, and because I have so little knowledge of these TSR rarities, I have a Tsojcanth that has modern (reletively speeking) photocopies of the two maps in leau of the original photocopies of the maps. The rest is complete and bona fide, and is good clean condition.

How much is such a thing likely to be worth? These things are damn hard to put prices on at the best of times, let alone with replacement map sheets.

From Good Condition down two or three grades?
That would have to make it POOR...
I still think that if the remainder of the module is in good condition, then the remainder should be listed at overall Fair condition/Reading copy myself.
But ONLY BEcause it IS something as rare as a Tsojconth ...
As some stated, even for one that isincomplete, there would certainly be a different market for that copy.
Otherwise, I would rate it lower...

I would not even think of trying to compare what little I know with ya'lls inifinately higher knowledge of these things.
Not to mention the many web sites with various definitions of grading levels...

I only have my opinion...with no college degree in rares grading to back it up either.

A rare item missing two pages is obviously not as valuable as a complete copy.
No one above argues that fact.
As originally stated in Ians post; his concern is by how much.

A Tsojconth is an EIGHT page Module, and I think the Maps are two pages?
Missing pages is not a minor inconvenience... such as a bent corner of the front cover sheet, or a dirty cover... or even a small amount of writing inside, perhaps a name, or someone's initials…
If what I stated above is true (the maps are 2 pages) then those missing maps comprise ONE FOURTH of an otherwise complete module...

An item missing one fourth of its contents is not just a minor irritation but a big problem.
It is an incomplete item... Period.
IMO, that makes it an enormous problem, not a minor irritation.

A collectable item that is missing 1/4th of its original contents is no longer a collectable grade item (IMO).
I think it would be much lower; as in crashed to the ground lower.

Obviously those who state that they would have no problem buying this item for $600 or more have a very different opinion, and that is fine with me.
That tells me that they hold the Tsojconth in higher regard than I do.
I have NO problems with that.
I have my favorites too.

Not to mention the fact that it is their money to use however they wish.
And if those folks spend those funds on an incomplete Item, then perhaps that might some day leave some other rare just a bit less chased after, so that I might have a chance of winning.
I have NO problems with that either.

I could not bring myself to buy it for as much as some have stated above.
I think that the $200-400 I stated earlier was pushing it a bit... but I can easily picture a true blue collector with the funds to back that choice up, feeling the missing maps are no big deal at all.

Pipswich wrote:Why would a true blue collector with the funds to back it up chase an incomplete at all.  LOL.

Because there are more true blue collectors with deep pockets than there are Tsojconth Modules.

And besides, I know for a certainty that there are several true blue collectors who have multiple copies of some of the rares such as his one.

If I had the funds, I would think much more seriously about buying one like that.

Those who know me know I'm not a TSR collector, and I came by this quite by chance It holds no real interest to me as I'm a fairly strict non-TSR D&D collector. I had pegged it at the $200-400 mark but had no real frame of reference, but with the experience of the board, and the recent discussions about the valuations systems, you're evaluation of things has been most appreciated. Thanks, Guys.

Barring me putting it on eBay on a whim, this will be a nice little more mainstream rarity that will be tradable for things more in line with my collection. All that's left is to find it a new home.