Erol Otus Commissioned Work by the Acaeum • Page 3 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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Erol Otus Commissioned Work by the Acaeum
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Poll: What kind of artwork would you have Erol Otus Commission for the Acaeum?

I have no interest in any Erol Otus artwork.	9%	[ 11 ]
I prefer a color, 11x17 print.	15%	[ 18 ]
I prefer a black & white 11x17 print.	5%	[ 6 ]
I prefter a color, 17x24 print.	59%	[ 69 ]
I prefer a black & white 17x24 print.	6%	[ 7 ]
I prefer something else larger.	5%	[ 6 ]

Total votes : 117

Author

Prufrock
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:28 pm

Just wanted to add that if the we need to up the price/individual I would have no problem with doubling or even more. That's just me, but a limited edition print from otus is easily worth (to me) more.

Martin

benjoshua
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:43 pm

Prufrock wrote:Just wanted to add that if the we need to up the price/individual I would have no problem with doubling or even more. That's just me, but a limited edition print from otus is easily worth (to me) more.

Martin

Agreed, but lets see how close we can get to the original ante. This is obvious, but the greater the buy in the fewer the number of people who will remain interested. Still no word from Goodman. His typical pattern is to participate in this forum every three or four days, so it may take a while before reality slaps us up side the head. In the meantime, I am personally hoping more people just register their interest.

Truth is worth finding and life is too short to work for money.

yaya
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:51 pm

I'm definitely in for $50-$100. The suggestions so far sound good.

"Do I have an opening bid for this shrewish copy of Tegel Manor?" -Frank M

Mark Jaeger

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:08 pm

Three things come to mind...
Firstly, someone needs to organise this formally, receive mail, liaise with the artist, organise and proof prints, scall and control the process on Acaeum. That's not gonna be a little bit of work. It needs to be someone with a little industry savy and experience. Any takers?
Secondly, there's gonna be collectable materials. The proof pencil sketches, fian pencil sketch and finished art piece. My suggestion would be that if one individual is organizing everything, and taking responsibility, they be allowed to keep the proof sketches in payment.
As to the final art piece, I have no idea how you deal sensibly with that.
Finally, Limited to me for $50-100 is less than 50 signed and numbered copies, and no hi-res digital image floating around the internet. Wouldn't want clones and reproductions surfacing in the future.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Tharizdun
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:34 pm

I saw this happen on another site. Same situation almost. People there have the $$$ and a good community of collectors (possibly smaller then here) looking to have an original piece of art created as the logo for the site itself with a print for everyone who would chip in. It didn't work out...
Some of the pitfalls:
1) How many people vote yes Vs how many people will actually pay.
2) What happens to the original? This is a problem as there's an original that will come of this and you're already talking about more $$$ that it would cost Joe Blow to commission a piece (as an individual) Vs the numbers you're talking about... How many people want to donate this to some charity auction/raffle it off/ whatever...
3) Why go through an "intermediary"? Why not email him directly. Never a good idea to use an intermediary unless you have to... You're going to pay more than Joe Blow paid for his personal commission going this route.
4) Whoever becomes the liason schmoe will be doing the work here. Coordinating all the general BS will become a chore. Especially when the artist is ready to go and the group is still vascilating about what they all want... people will not pay, things will get mixed up. Coordinator guy will start to tire of the experience... probably looking at out of pocket expenses... this is when it went downhill at above said site. "This is a great community though"! So is the other one :wink:

5) What happens to the original.
6) The silent majority will likely not be enthused with the minorities "vision" and then see #1.
7) What happens to the original? This will really become a problem, watch and see

I think this is a fun idea and hope it works out for you guys. It's really hairy though...

benjoshua
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:57 pm

Tharizdun wrote:I saw this happen on another site. Same situation almost. People there have the $$$ and a good community of collectors (possibly smaller then here) looking to have an original piece of art created as the logo for the site itself with a print for everyone who would chip in. It didn't work out...
Some of the pitfalls:
1) How many people vote yes Vs how many people will actually pay.
2) What happens to the original? This is a problem as there's an original that will come of this and you're already talking about more $$$ that it would cost Joe Blow to commission a piece (as an individual) Vs the numbers you're talking about... How many people want to donate this to some charity auction/raffle it off/ whatever...
3) Why go through an "intermediary"? Why not email him directly. Never a good idea to use an intermediary unless you have to... You're going to pay more than Joe Blow paid for his personal commission going this route.
4) Whoever becomes the liason schmoe will be doing the work here. Coordinating all the general BS will become a chore. Especially when the artist is ready to go and the group is still vascilating about what they all want... people will not pay, things will get mixed up. Coordinator guy will start to tire of the experience... probably looking at out of pocket expenses... this is when it went downhill at above said site. "This is a great community though"! So is the other one
5) What happens to the original.
6) The silent majority will likely not be enthused with the minorities "vision" and then see #1.
7) What happens to the original? This will really become a problem, watch and see
I think this is a fun idea and hope it works out for you guys. It's really hairy though...

Like herding cats. I agree. The factors you present are real and real tough.

Thank you. We all need to see what we're up against.

The biggest issue is likely that of trust. This community (not all of us) has been burned on certain pre-ordered products in the past, so what's going to make this any different? You have to have agreements like this done up legally, by a lawyer/professional/intermediary everyone trusts and that's difficult in itself. It would indeed be possible to save money by not using a professional intermediary, but the question of trust gets bigger and would likely kill the deal.

And I personally would rather see a deal on the table than a better deal in the air. And that's just my opinion.

Truth is worth finding and life is too short to work for money.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:09 pm

benjoshua wrote:Like herding cats. I agree.

Herding cats is easy. Gas them, then use a broom.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

deimos3428
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:10 pm

What original? Since we're talking about a print here, I'd assume any production materials (sketches, final drawing, plates, etc.) would remain with the artist, to do with as he pleases. Other than that, there is no "original".

Besides, if the artist is able to print additional non-limited editions of the print to generate some income, his initial commission for the limited edition can also be lower.

It's sad that some people are already worrying about investment value. The idea here is to throw in with your buddies in order to commission an artist you admire, right?

As for vision, Erol knows what he's doing, I figure. It'd be a bit presumptive of us to tell him what to draw, wouldn't it? Tell him to surprise me.

I know some people are interested in contributing more funds, but the higher the cost the less people will be interested. I'm in for $50, but if it's much more than that I'll have to take a pass. (Maybe you overly enthusiastic sorts can order two copies instead?)

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:16 pm

benjoshua wrote:This community (not all of us) has been burned on certain pre-ordered products in the past, so what's going to make this any different?

To be fair to the certain company involved, everybody received their products and the value of those products is more than the cover price in both content and resale value. Other than the time delay, which is the nature of pre-ordering (practically evry industry in the world fails to meed deadlines), I would suggest we all made a tidy little profit should we cash in, and we all got products that are well and truely worth owning. People will come hunting for product such as these, and when they do, the price will rise further (unless the market gets diluted future reprints).

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Plaag
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:18 pm

Anyone PMed Calithena..he's doing a Erol Otus contest for Fight On!
Maybe could be the go between.

ShaneG.

I reject your reality and substitute my own

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:20 pm

deimos3428 wrote:What original? Since we're talking about a print here, I'd assume any production materials (sketches, final drawing, plates, etc.) would remain with the artist, to do with as he pleases. Other than that, there is no "original".

Besides, if the artist is able to print additional non-limited editions of the print to generate some income, his initial commission for the limited edition can also be lower.

It's sad that some people are already worrying about investment value. The idea here is to throw in with your buddies in order to commission an artist you admire, right?

As for vision, Erol knows what he's doing, I figure. It'd be a bit presumptive of us to tell him what to draw, wouldn't it? Tell him to surprise me.

I know some people are interested in contributing more funds, but the higher the cost the less people will be interested. I'm in for $50, but if it's much more than that I'll have to take a pass. (Maybe you overly enthusiastic sorts can order two copies instead?)

Well actually I originally mooted the idea because I figured it would be a good investment, and if I personally commissioned an artwork, I would expect to own both the reproduction rights and the original. As a group, I would expect the group funding the commission to own both the rights and the original. But that's down to negotiation with the artist involved, as is price.

Also, EO is an artist. He may not be up for organising printing. You may need to take the artwork, go to a print professional, setout and border it, print, and then go back to EO for signing.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Tharizdun
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:26 pm

That "other" group was on the same page all the way until payments had started and the like. No way "40" from this group is going to agree on anything

benjoshua
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:53 pm

Tharizdun wrote:That "other" group was on the same page all the way until payments had started and the like. No way "40" from this group is going to agree on anything

40? We'll even be lucky to get twenty, especially when you factor in who says they'll pay and actually does pay.

I think one thing we have going for us so far is that we are not trying to get everyone on this forum to agree because that will never happen. All we have to do is get a group of people willing to ante up a certain total for an agreed upon set of parameters. Anything else is crazy. Unfortunately, it might take 40 people with $100.00 to make it happen and we're already seeing that's not likely. The bottom line is that we still don't know what we're talking about on multiple fronts.

Still no word yet. I'll PM Calithena. I will only verify that he has contact info, and will not start anything with Erol Otus.

Truth is worth finding and life is too short to work for money.

Rakeesh sah Tarna
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:00 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:
benjoshua wrote:Like herding cats. I agree.

Herding cats is easy. Gas them, then use a broom.

makes skinning more easy i guess. pretty can of worms good if something does work

Tharizdun
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:42 pm

40 people with $100.00

That's a lot of $$$! The art itself should be pretty reasonable. How much will it cost to produce prints and ship them out? I have 0 clue.

This is a forum for "collectors" so there has to be some interest in it being a "collectable" thing regardless of what some people would like to think. If you're spending $50-100 there's no way enough people are going to buy it if it doesn't have some percieved value. The same goes for the original. Not many people are likely feeling benevolent these days so I'd doubt that many people will want to donate the proceeds to a charitable cause. "The artist can keep the original" but then what's he goint to do with it? Frame it and put it on his wall? :lol:

He will then have to sell it and probably take a loss compared to what he could get by selling it to the collective group. What does E.O. charge for a commission typically? It wasn't too much the last time I saw. You're elevating that price though by going through a middle man and posting fairly high $$$ here. A popular working artist I know of charges 5K per. That's an artist who doesn't need the extra work and he pays his bills, sells stuff. Most of the guys who are genre guys get a few hundred to several hundred for an original commission. Note: some of the TSR guys ask for quite a bit more but you could probably get Easley to so something for the numbers you're talking about above. E.O. is the preferred guy here in this thread but his value rises higher and higher if you limit it to just him and come up with the numbers that you're throwing out there :wink:

No slight to anyone! Just being objective :wink:

benjoshua
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:29 pm

I really don't think it'll take $4,000.00 to make this thing happen, but like I said, there's lots we don't know on multiple fronts.

Also, as to the original, which I agree could be a sticking point, there are a couple of options which haven't received negative reactions yet. I'm not saying everyone liked these ideas, but lets recap some that, for now, may appear to pose less of a problem(is that vague enough for everyone?), plus I've added two more possibilities.

1) Auction it at GenCon and divide the money among the collectors/investors to recoup some of our expense.

2) Auction it at GenCon and give the money to Erol's favorite charity(if he even has a favorite charity).

3) Sell it on eBay and divide the money among the collectors/investors to recoup some of our expense.

4) Require that the intermediary auction the artwork on eBay for his payment. That does two things, makes it equally(theoretically) available to all of us and gives the intermediary payment which doesn't add to our current hoped-for cost.

Proposal #1 & #3 gets into the issue of trust again because who is going to submit the art to GenCon?, and disburse the funds?, and the same thing with the eBay sale? The eBay sale does hold the advantage of everyone being able to (theoretically) bid on the thing and see what the thing sold for so there's a little more transparency. But the other way to look at it is that it's a whole lot easier to see how much you had stolen from you.

Not trying to be difficult, we just need to realize the more I look at this, the trickier it might get. Neither of these two options are truly clean and/or neat. I am not saying go with option #2 or #4.

Some of you technical, legal eagles will see multiple problems with these possibilities, but I am hoping we can keep the picture as wide as possible for now(even though I went a little wild with specifics). Hold off on the little stuff until we have a hard and fast proposal(if we get one).

I am not trying to get bogged down in what-if scenarios, because we could lose our focus. Let's just concentrate on registering interest and opinions and then see if we can get a hard proposal on the table. Then, we hopefully have enough people to make that proposal reality. We may not have as much say in the proposal as we'd like anyway.

Truth is worth finding and life is too short to work for money.

PaulKM
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:43 pm

Tharizdun wrote:
That's a lot of $$$! The art itself should be pretty reasonable. How much will it cost to produce prints and ship them out? I have 0 clue.

This is a forum for "collectors" so there has to be some interest in it being a "collectable" thing regardless of what some people would like to think. If you're spending $50-100 there's no way enough people are going to buy it if it doesn't have some percieved value. The same goes for the original. Not many people are likely feeling benevolent these days so I'd doubt that many people will want to donate the proceeds to a charitable cause. "The artist can keep the original" but then what's he goint to do with it? Frame it and put it on his wall? He will then have to sell it and probably take a loss compared to what he could get by selling it to the collective group. What does E.O. charge for a commission typically? It wasn't too much the last time I saw. You're elevating that price though by going through a middle man and posting fairly high $$$ here. A popular working artist I know of charges 5K per. That's an artist who doesn't need the extra work and he pays his bills, sells stuff. Most of the guys who are genre guys get a few hundred to several hundred for an original commission. Note: some of the TSR guys ask for quite a bit more but you could probably get Easley to so something for the numbers you're talking about above. E.O. is the preferred guy here in this thread but his value rises higher and higher if you limit it to just him and come up with the numbers that you're throwing out there No slight to anyone! Just being objective

I'm not doing this for any future benefit: the perceived value for me is in the act itself, and commemorating the community here on the Acaeum. It's the reason why I suggested the word, "Acaeum" should appear in the piece.

There is no reason to switch artists: Benjoshua's wonderful idea was simple enough, and if we get bogged down with comparing artists and prices, then arguing over concepts, nothing will get done. If we have to go with a smaller black and white piece to fit the budget and the limited, interested members, I'm still happy. This shouldn't be about an investment but a celebration of the artist and our love for the genre.

I don't see why anyone would have a problem with either auctioning the original for charity or *to recoup costs* or as a gift to Foul: he can keep it, or sell it to help keep this site running. I prefer the idea of a well-deserved gift myself.

No matter what we'll be stuck with original and someone will end up owning it, so to get my limited print I'm willing to pony up my cash and wish the owner of the original the best of luck. If we don't concede the original must be auctioned or given away the whole idea dies, and that would suck.

Best,

Paul

*edit

Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, and for once I'm inclined to believe...we are indeed drifting into the arena of the unwell.

FoulFoot
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:20 pm

I'd be in for $50 for a print.

And no, no need to donate the original to me, though I appreciate the suggestion! I'd guess that Otus (or whomever) might be much more inclined to do this (if the amount isn't enough) if *he* gets to keep the original, and simply agrees not to reprint it. He could sell it himself.

Foul

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