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copycat
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:21 pm

With the fees, before the increase, I refused to sell anything for less than $4. Below that, anything sold was pointless... I might as well have just given it away. But, now, its almost like you have to sell for at least $9, which is great for eBay (the higher it goes the more they make - but not at the same time because people won't want to pay that so eBay makes nothing.) Hello eBay. Meet Damocles.

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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:38 pm

Xaxaxe wrote:In a big-picture sense, I'm not sure this is true at all.

Sellers are beginning to go elsewhere, actually. eBay had two straight quarters where fewer items were sold before finally reversing that trend with the most recent reporting period. Sellers, in general (or "on average," or however else the numbers can be parsed), are either selling fewer items, selling less frequently, or leaving the site altogether (or maybe "taking a long break").

+++++

In the smaller picture, though, I agree completely that I don't see a viable alternative for doing our little thing here ... eBay appears to have D&D sellers (and probably most collectors in general) in a nice little vise. Amazon can't do mixed lots or multiple items (not to mention it's not a site that has any connection to any sort of gaming), Yahoo is a joke (do they even do auctions any longer?), no one is really looking for a return to the Wild, Wild West days of the rec.games.marketplace service, a Google auction site is as much wishful thinking as is a college football playoff, niche auction sites have been tried and found wanting ... I need to stop; I'm getting depressed.

I'm not sure what the answer is ... or if there even is an answer.

+++++

Back to the bigger picture real quick. I wonder how many smaller sellers are, like me, are pretty much going to stop selling on eBay? I mean, honestly, what's my incentive for ever selling another book, CD, DVD or other media-related item on eBay? My fees just jumped way up, the stuff sells better on Amazon anyway, buyers can now leave any sort of feedback or do any sort of extortion they want to ... why would I have any interest in any of that? Yes, I'll still sell gaming items on eBay, but I'll be taking a lot of listings elsewhere ... and eBay will not be seeing a single penny from any of those.

Now I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking, "Big deal, Xaxie, you're just one guy; eBay won't miss you." Which might be true, if it weren't for the fact that the vast majority of sellers on eBay are small fish, just like me. Each of us small-timers has a lot to think about now ...

+++++

I've always laughed at the "eBay is doomed" scenarios that have popped up here over the years. I've even gotten into a couple of minor flame wars on the subject. But today is the first day that I'm not laughing about it: today's announcements are so over-the-top anti-seller that I honestly think sellers will begin leaving the site in droves. Just wait until those 8.75% final value fees start kicking in ... not to mention giving buyers all of the leverage in terms of feedback. I give it a year before an honest-to-God stampede of exiting sellers sends eBay stock even further into the toilet.

+++++

What a curious mixture of good and bad we're dealing with now. For all of the good things (free gallery photos, all of the specific changes that will impact dickheads like Cougar, etc.), there are also some unfortunate things that will affect all of the reliable D&D sellers here (Mike, Brian, the Burntwires, etc., etc. ... even myself, at least back when I sold tons of D&D stuff). Sometimes, it seems like it's hard to catch a break.

Good points as always, Duke. My take on some of them:

Actually, Sellers aren't going anywhere...it's the BUYERS that have been leaving ebay in droves the past year. Which is why the steps taken to basically bulletproof the buying experience. Study after study showed that people were dealing with other venues because frankly Ebay had been aquiring a bad rep...high shipping, no quality control, lousy sellers misrepresenting items, etc. I think this is really just a big play on Ebay's part to "bring back" the casual buyer, and don't think they braintrust there won't play this up on the media to get people back in the fold....

Smaller sellers have little incentive to do buisness on ebay, unless they are selling high dollar items. For myself (average 1500 items a month listed in my ebay store) the idea of leaving is a fantasy...it's more work that it's worth, and there simply is not venue available where thousands of buyers daily can search through your items.

Simply put, sellers aren't going to leave unless they are guaranteed the same sort of venue elsewhere..and it isn't there. When it DOES come, I think Ebay will have to do some fast thinking. Until then, they can do what they like how they like, with little chance of financial reprisals. Personally, where would I go? Amazon? Craigslist? There just isn't a viable alternative for someone with the amount and type of stuff I sell.

The truth is, until the changes take effect, we won't know what the damage will be. I will say that I have a couple of scenarios in mind to protect myself....that being insurance REQUIRED on all international packages, along with absolutely no shipping to non confirmed addresses (which will cut out all Italian buyers, for one). At least these two things will help me maintain a slight edge on unscrupulous or impatient buyers.

I think it is MANDATORY that the sellers and buyers in this forum, who I trust quite a bit, to have an current and accurate "Bad Bidders" list. That way, when one of us is hit, the others can immediately close ranks, block the asshole, and have him scratching his head wondering why his "awesome scam" of leaving negs and charging back on a helpless seller isn't working on anyone else selling RPGS....

I would be willing to go as far as participating in a "RPG Sellers Group" that meets online once a month or so to share any knowledge on said scumbags and their methods...or we could just have a thread here and keep it updated.

Mike B.

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Badmike
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:43 pm

Saxonangel wrote:If anything the feedback debacle is going to hit those sellers who ship internationally.

Before Xmas, Blackmoor and I toyed with the idea of shipping air only to international buyers. This was due to the unrealistic expectations of an absurdly impatient (and perhaps mentally unstable) french buyer.
Now it's well into the new year and we are struggling with a number of Australians who are required by a new "more effective" Aussie customs change to wait on items for 2-3months AFTER it gets there.
Point is: It's difficult enough for sellers already...

So I guess, under the new rules the internationals can choose to neg us within 60days without any chance of reprisals or attempt at negotiation?
That's right kiddies, our feedback window just got cut back from 90 to 60....

A good majority of buyers would rather the save a few bucks and get stuff sent surface.
Heavens knows, when Blackmoor buys something it's almost always surface... This usually does take around 60 days, if not longer. Now EVERTHING will have to go air. Not only will the bad sellers be leaving Ebay in droves (huzzah!), many of the good ones too. Those who won't be able to sell their items because buyers will balk at the cost of shipping air.
This just murdered any international sales for most everyone IMHO.

We've been on eBay just over ten years now. And yes it's had it's drawbacks, but it's been a fun ride up until now. But today it feels like that old friend has just stabbed us in the back and turned the knife

Simple solution is to ship everything airmail. If you are in the US, ship everything priority mail (you even get to use the free boxes and envelopes!). The ONLY items I ship first class international anymore are individual paperbacks, and I may have to switch that if delays start cropping up.

Once again, if you get negged by a buyer due to a slowly arriving package, please post the buyer to this forum under a bad bidder's thread. Once the word gets out (and it will, these things always do) that if you are an "impatient" type and decide to neg a Aceaum-related ebay seller who deals in RPGs or minis, you just might find it rather impossible to complete your 1st edition collection when another DOZEN OR MORE established sellers have your ass blocked. It will only take a few of these guys being made examples of to have an effect....

Mike B.

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Badmike
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:46 pm

bclarkie wrote:
There really is zero incentive for smaller sellers to sell on Ebay. I just wonder if tyhey realize that or not. I can understand attempting to cater to your larger sellers, but by doing so thewy have to realize its going to drive a lot of business too with the increased fee structure that will affect the little guy the most. Can you hear it:

"Sure I'd like to sell of some of this stuff, but Ebay wants effectively 20% of its value for me to sell it. I think I'll just throw it away, its not worth the hassle..."

BC, I honestly think Ebay WANTS to get rid of the little seller. They have realized (or some brainiac marketing guy showed them a power point presentation) that very little of their money comes from these sources (probably another reason they are ending the store listings for anything under a buck). I think in the long run Ebay thinks it's easier to deal with tens of thousands of established sellers rather than hundreds of thousands of random garage sale types selling 2-3 items a year.

Mike B.

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Badmike
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:49 pm

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
My point was that, on the margin, and at this point in time, it may pay to cater to buyers rather than sellers given the importance of securing their large network. At some point, of course, more sellers will bail when they can't impose all these extra costs on consumers.

But right now I think they gain a lot more than they lose by these changes.

I agree. They are trying to win back buyers, and this will do so in the short run. Whether it works or not in the long run (sellers get dissatisfied with selling to buyers who feel entitled to have their butts wiped) remains to be seen, but Ebay has struck me the last few years as a company that is living year to year anyway....just hoping each and every change boosts stock up a little more...with no long term strategy in sight. I think in their hearts the bosses there know someday they are going to have competition that is going to murder them...the object is to make as much money as possible until that day.

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
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beasterbrook
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:49 pm

benjoshua wrote:I'd hate to limit my international buyers. They are shelling out the big bucks in many cases. The dollar is so low, it's not funny.

Yes it is riding a bit low at the moment :lol:

I remember a couple of years ago the dollar was very strong I was getting about 1aussie $= .55US $ (it used to average about 1 aussie $=.70US$) at the moment I'm getting 1 aussie $=.88 cents and it should get even better for me.. the aussie economy is still strong, we are still riding a strong demand for raw goods and Australia is rich in that and quite close to China. The fed droped their int rates the other day, in Australia we are talking about raising ours (again) so the Aussie $$ should get stronger (hopefully for me).. having said that I still value most things in US dollars so I still think something is worth $10us and not now $12us.. and of course I still have to pay higher postage costs (mush higher now the M-Bag rates have changed) so it sort of evens out a bit...

Brette:)

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Last edited by beasterbrook on Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Badmike
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:53 pm

benjoshua wrote:I am pleased/O.K. with several things in particular. First, the buyer satisfaction stars will mean something and Cougie is cooked. He's nowhere near 4.6 in several areas(I'm assuming they wil use the same star system and values). However, that 4.6 and 4.8 standard is difficult to reach. I am at 4.8 to 4.7 on all my categories and I think I'm a pretty good seller.

The other thing I like is that the minimum selling price for fixed-price auctions is now at $1.00. I would hope that means Coug and other problematic sellers can no longer buy feedback.

The fees are at 3 1/2 percent higher. It's not good but it's not the end of the world. What this does is hurts (maybe stops?) people buying big lots on eBay and then re-selling. The profit margin is significantly cut and then some. Of course, if you are re-using used stamps and getting stuff for free by stealing from people with M-Bag schemes, you could at least make a living.

So, I find the changes distasteful, but if they put Coug out of business, I'll be happy about that. The enemy of my enemy is my friend? In this case, maybe, and maybe not. The jury is still out on that one.

Thank goodness I'm just about through selling stuff. I don't know how many of you know, but I bought a BUNCH of stuff from a gaming store that didn't pay it's taxes, and I've been selling it off for the past three years and still have stuff. I think I've got about a year to go. It was a fun ride. However, I wouldn't be surprised if I found another bonanza bargain and started all over again. But then again, maybe not.

True, shouldn't look beyond the positives. Cougie and his ilk are positively finished unless they change their entire game plan. You know, Coug is an asshat, but he's never struck me as an absolute idiot. I wouldn't be surprised if he manages to adapt, just enough to avoid penalties, but not enough to enjoy any benefits. Sort of meander along like he's been doing for years now anyway....

Mike B.

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Badmike
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:55 pm

benjoshua wrote:
Yeah, but USPS needs to provide for the purchase of insurance on First Class International. The only way to get insurance now is with Priority(it's free for up to about $50.00 of coverage) or by Registered Mail ($9.50 plus the insurance cost). That's crazy expensive.

I'd hate to limit my international buyers. They are shelling out the big bucks in many cases. The dollar is so low, it's not funny.

I simply couldn't make it without the international buyer. He's that important. But as I said, having mandatory insurance is probably right around the corner for my online sales. Thank goodness for the free international boxes and envelopes.

If you ship anything valuable I always tell the international buyer it has to be sent global priority instead of international first class. 99% understand. the ones that don't, I don't need their business.

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
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Badmike
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:57 pm

serleran wrote:With the fees, before the increase, I refused to sell anything for less than $4. Below that, anything sold was pointless... I might as well have just given it away. But, now, its almost like you have to sell for at least $9, which is great for eBay (the higher it goes the more they make - but not at the same time because people won't want to pay that so eBay makes nothing.) Hello eBay. Meet Damocles.

Selling below $9 only is useful for items that buyers have a tendency to combine, thus actually increasing your sales...for example, magazines, buyers tend to buy these in clumps. Personally I never figured out how a lot of those "Cds for 1 cent" guys made their money back unless it was on inflated shipping.

Mike B.

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beasterbrook
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:12 pm

Badmike wrote:I agree. They are trying to win back buyers, and this will do so in the short run. Whether it works or not in the long run (sellers get dissatisfied with selling to buyers who feel entitled to have their butts wiped) remains to be seen.

The pendulum swings to buyers and sellers and back again... there has to be a happy medium there somewere, the biggest problem is that is has gone from a hobby were people are selling what they don't want to people making a living and running it as a business, and thats were the problem lies I think. People rely on ebay to provide as their only source of income and ebay has been preaching this to people and encouraging it and, as with most businesses, and esp were money is concerned it tends to attract people who's job it is to rip other people off. Honestly the amount of FAKE product sold out of ebay is staggering! DVD, Cloths, Sunglasses.. you name it... and then you have the poeple that are just out to sell you nothing but air (oh you wanted a phone and not a picture of a phone, gee the description on the auction reads blah blah...) What ebay shouldbe doing is to concentrate those buyers and sellers that constantly get bad feedback and complaints... which the majority of buyers and sellers aren't..

Brette:)

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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:27 pm

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:I mean it takes a lot of effort to list a $1 CD that probably won't sell or sell for much, yet one sees them listed eveywhere.

Yo! That's me (although I usually try for a $2 opener, at the lowest).

I'm not proud to admit it, but I'm passing along all fees to my buyers when it comes to CDs. I charge between $2.40 and $2.75 to ship a single disc, which is well above what it actually costs to send a 4- or 5-ounce item.

It's also sort of frightening that my shipping costs for CDs are among the lowest I've ever seen. I've even been complimented on how reasonable they are ...

That's what eBay has done to the small-timers, slowly but surely, year after year: we're forced to pass along at least some of the fees to our buyers. If not, it's possible to literally begin taking losses on tiny sales and/or no-sales.

Deadlord
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:29 pm

There is now nothing to stop buyers from prowling around and buying items that are shipped untrackable, then negging and charging back. The system is officially broken.

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beasterbrook
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:42 pm

Deadlord39 wrote:There is now nothing to stop buyers from prowling around and buying items that are shipped untrackable, then negging and charging back. The system is officially broken.

Yes but how many people know about it and how many people do it? In all my years I have done it once, and that was yesterday(!) and only because the buyer charged for insurance (insisted on it) and then didn't actually get it and then I actually had the chance to bloody use it! (usually I don't due to the time difference to send, cost involved with returning items and eating postage costs to and from etc) The problem is the people that abuse this loophole in the system CONSTANTLY and have a track record of doing so they should be the ones targeted... there are lots of other loopholes, I tried to buy a DVD recently, I was told that is wasn't in stock and that it could be ordered (it couldn't be.. only after I had paid and 3 weeks had passed of course) Looking into the sellers feedback, this is a constany feedback problem for him ie it looks like he doesn't have ANY stock at all and orderes it in when he sells something.. this is an unacceptable practice as far as I'm concerned, if you don't have the stock you should be able to sell the item or heaven forbid auction it off as he did as well...

Brette:)

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gyg
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:45 pm

Badmike wrote:

I think it is MANDATORY that the sellers and buyers in this forum, who I trust quite a bit, to have an current and accurate "Bad Bidders" list. That way, when one of us is hit, the others can immediately close ranks, block the asshole, and have him scratching his head wondering why his "awesome scam" of leaving negs and charging back on a helpless seller isn't working on anyone else selling RPGS....

Mike B.

This is an excellent idea - the only problem is is such threads tend to get clogged with dialog and nonsense - we need a single thread that is simplya list of names, discussion can go on in threads elsewhere.

Any ideas on hopw to implement that? Is it just a matter of starting a new thread and hoping everyone gets the message JUST to post names?

I'm the ideas man - I leave the nuts and bolts to the technical people

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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:00 pm

gyg wrote:
This is an excellent idea - the only problem is is such threads tend to get clogged with dialog and nonsense - we need a single thread that is simplya list of names, discussion can go on in threads elsewhere.

Any ideas on hopw to implement that? Is it just a matter of starting a new thread and hoping everyone gets the message JUST to post names?

I'm the ideas man - I leave the nuts and bolts to the technical people

Two threads, not one. The list of names thread and the long winded explanation and discussion thread. The two sister threads work together. Good posters will link the name in the list thread to the post about the explanation in the other thread. Would take a moderator who could and would prune the list thread regularly.

gyg
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:07 pm

Busman wrote:
Two threads, not one. The list of names thread and the long winded explanation and discussion thread. The two sister threads work together. Good posters will link the name in the list thread to the post about the explanation in the other thread. Would take a moderator who could and would prune the list thread regularly.

Pretty much it really. though moderator is a dirty word here (j/k

)
I think the major point is one list has to be just names (perhaps in a way that I can cut and paste on to my blocked bidder list?!)

You can never have too much of something you didn't need in the first place.

jasonw1239
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:12 pm

I think when it comes to providing information about bad buyers/sellers the less information posted about the details of their scams the better.

Otherwise we would be providing a convenient source of information for potential scammers.

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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:20 pm

There's a middle ground somewhere that we're all smart enough to find.

I need some information on why a buyer/seller is being added to our lists ... otherwise, I might be tempted to think it's just some sort of grudge. But I don't necessarily need a huge blow-by-blow account of what happened, either (although some have been entertaining).

One thing that's worked for me is blocking the bidders mentioned on our "watch lists" right away. I don't mess around; I stop what I'm doing and add them right then.

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