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They just don't get it, do they?
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flying_purple_monkfish
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:24 pm

I suppose i'm just biased due to games and gms i've had. I've loved the few ad&d games i've played but most if not all the 3.5 games i've played have just become hack fests filled with players trying to make the most powerful character etc etc. Hey, I remember really pissing off a party at one point because I decided to play a rogue that was a con artist not a thief so he couldn't pick locks.. ahahahaha man, that was bratty of me.

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killjoy32
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:32 pm

flying_purple_monkfish wrote:I suppose i'm just biased due to games and gms i've had. I've loved the few ad&d games i've played but most if not all the 3.5 games i've played have just become hack fests filled with players trying to make the most powerful character etc etc. Hey, I remember really pissing off a party at one point because I decided to play a rogue that was a con artist not a thief so he couldn't pick locks.. ahahahaha man, that was bratty of me.

FPM come to GenCon next time and join in the game dude

there will be 5 places and 3 are already taken (Mike, Martin and John)

Al

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Cattledog
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:14 pm

It seems the fundamental difference goes back to the direction of the companies. TSR under Gary wanted to produce the best gaming material they could even if it wasn't terribly profitable. Just look at all those small modules that hardly made a buck. Perhaps they'd have done all right without the Blumes' mismanagment.

The new TSR leaders couldn't focus on anything, overproduced novels, dragon dice, and way too many previously cited crappy supplements (great glacier et al).

I think WOTC probably thought they were saving the game and possibly had the best interest of gamers at heart. Course I could be wrong. Regardless Hasbro doesn't care what it is as long as it makes money. I'll give credit to the actual designers for trying to make a legitimate game but intent goes a long way.

I'm a 1E and 2E WOG and Realms player. I loved everything up to about 1990 or so but I've tried 3 and 3.5 and was ultimately disappointed once the newness wore off. I was lucky that I never felt a need to change or buy new material especially now when gamers are only statistics.

Hmm, no, I don't have a gambling problem, I'm winning, and winning is not a problem. That's like saying Michael Jordan has a basketball problem, or Def Leppard has an awesomeness problem. So why don't y'all pour some sugar on that?

Improv
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:32 pm

Badmike wrote:
Yeh, if you can work me into that mess.....!!!!!

Mike B.

I am sure Al can ... how about a gaming session at the north pole. Or running The Desert if Isolation series while hiking across the Sahara as part of MDS. Or even Oriental adventires type session while visting the Monguls?

:wink:

"... and may I remind you that this ain't the end. I can still kick some ass." - Tom Petty

killjoy32
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:07 pm

improvstone wrote:
I am sure Al can ... how about a gaming session at the north pole. Or running The Desert if Isolation series while hiking across the Sahara as part of MDS. Or even Oriental adventires type session while visting the Monguls?

i have a fantastic idea for the next game

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FormCritic
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:12 pm

Some thoughts about the changeover to 4.0 and people's reactions to it:

1) Who didn't see it coming? You didn't have to be the dwarf wisewoman from The 13th Warrior to know 4.0 was on its way. In fact, any active gamer today would have had to deliberately try not to hear about 4.0 long before it was announced.

2) Anyone who could count years knew 4.0 was coming soon.

3) Anyone who knows gaming at all knows that game companies must put out new editions of their games in order to stay profitable.

4) There was never anything wrong with OD&D to cause AD&D. There was never anything wrong with AD&D to require its pointy-headed, deformed, albino, feebleminded cousin 2nd Edition AD&D to be born....so why does there have to be anything wrong with 3.0/3.5 in order for 4th edition to be born?

5) Any 3.0 player who wants to be outraged just for fun ought to be much more concerned about the ugly, hard-hearted betrayal that caused 3.5 to be born.

6) As has been pointed out, any 3.0/3.5 player who wants to keep playing should have no problem doing so. Even people who are totally dependent upon modules will have no shortage of already-printed material. I conservatively estimate 20 years of weekly gaming sessions would be required to get through even half of the published settings and adventures for 3.0/3.5. 20x52=1040 gaming sessions...if their group did not take holidays off from gaming, they might have a chance to hack through about 50% of what is out there.

7) Anyone who cannot convert adventures between rules editions is not a very competent gamer. If you pay attention to game designers like Gary Gygax or Rob Kuntz, you will hear them talk about design first and rules conversions second. The play is the thing. Rules are just stat blocks.

Who says that anyone has to lose anything because a new edition of a game has appeared? There is no rule requiring anyone to keep up with the Jones family. Why not just ignore the new rules edition?

9) Brick and mortar gaming stores are doomed anyway...just as small-time booksellers are also doomed. At this point, a surviving store has either greatly diversified or they are out of business. CCG's were a money-maker. Miniatures wargaming is still a moneymaker. Has anyone seriously been making money on RPG's for some time now without other game interests to support it?

10) Who says that 4.0 won't be a smash-em-up rockin' good game? Just because it is WOTC doesn't necessarily mean that it won't be good.

11) Who says that the online component of 4.0 won't be the best thing to ever happen to gaming? It might just drag a lot of 40 year-old gamers back to the table when they find they can meet their old gaming buddies online. 4.0 might be the biggest online family reunion ever.

12) Who says that the demise of 3.0/3.5 won't be a good thing? It also means the demise of all the splat books and second-rate game supplements that supported those games. 4.0 might just be the surgery Dungeons and Dragons requires.

13) Does anyone here really want Dungeons and Dragons to go out of print and fall silent? After all the bashing of WOTC, aren't they the ones who have sustained and revived Dungeons and Dragons...giving it easily another decade of life and supporting an enormous gaming sub-culture? Does anyone here really want the web to fall silent and the doors to close and Dungeons and Dragons go away?

14) Does anyone here really think that a different fantasy RPG is likely to sustain the sub-culture and capture its imagination like Dungeons and Dragons?

15) Any 3.0/3.5 player who is so outraged about 4.0 that he has to have a physical confrontation over it is welcome to attack me. But...I warn you...the resulting battle will involve the 3.0/3.5 rules for grappling, tripping and fighting from prone. If pressed, I will force you to adjudicate a bull rush action! If that doesn't give you pause to consider then pack a lunch and bring your rules lawyer. The battle is gonna take a while!

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

sauromatian
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:43 pm

FormCritic wrote:There was never anything wrong with OD&D to cause AD&D.

It needed revision at the time. RPGs were a new thing, reflected in the disorganization of the OD&D rules [It's easier to use them now because we already know how to play the game]. Supplementary material like the thief class may become essential, requiring new consolidated rulebooks.

Unfortunately publishers don't want to produce a single book that has everything needed in one volume. Information is given in truncated form requiring advanced supplements, or arbitrarily split between several volumes. Even problematic rules can be profitable, requiring the purchase of fixes.

FormCritic
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:52 pm

sauromatian wrote:
It needed revision at the time. RPGs were a new thing, reflected in the disorganization of the OD&D rules [It's easier to use them now because we already know how to play the game]. Supplementary material like the thief class may become essential, requiring new consolidated rulebooks.

Unfortunately publishers don't want to produce a single book that has everything needed in one volume. Information is given in truncated form requiring advanced supplements, or arbitrarily split between several volumes. Even problematic rules can be profitable, requiring the purchase of fixes.

Good points, sauromatian.

One other problem with the OD&D rules is that they did not make their way west in a timely fashion. We first saw the "supplements" but could not figure out how they related to the Holmes Basic Set rules we had access to. I did not see a set of OD&D books in a store until 1985...and then I realized what "supplement" meant.

But, the rules themselves worked just as well as AD&D. I think AD&D was an improvement, but it was not mandatory.

One problem with a single-volume game would be the cost of the book and its physical size. Also, there is the distinctly different purpose of the three books that really make up the core rules of Dungeons and Dragons. They players don't need (and, in an ideal world, shouldn't have) access to the information utilized by the game master.

Shadowrun is a nice example of how problematic rules can still be profitable. Good lord!

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

Badmike
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:07 pm

FormCritic wrote:Some thoughts about the changeover to 4.0 and people's reactions to it:

1) Who didn't see it coming? You didn't have to be the dwarf wisewoman from The 13th Warrior to know 4.0 was on its way. In fact, any active gamer today would have had to deliberately try not to hear about 4.0 long before it was announced.

2) Anyone who could count years knew 4.0 was coming soon.

3) Anyone who knows gaming at all knows that game companies must put out new editions of their games in order to stay profitable.

Yep, just common sense. But then again, no one here gets out alive, and for the most part we are STILL suprised when the plane crashes on our house.

4) There was never anything wrong with OD&D to cause AD&D. There was never anything wrong with AD&D to require its pointy-headed, deformed, albino, feebleminded cousin 2nd Edition AD&D to be born....so why does there have to be anything wrong with 3.0/3.5 in order for 4th edition to be born?

Actually OD&D as written is virtually unplayable, which is why supplement after supplement was released, which is why the greatness of 1st ed was eventually released and became the most successful RPG ever published. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but if you can do the same thing and do it better, why not?

5) Any 3.0 player who wants to be outraged just for fun ought to be much more concerned about the ugly, hard-hearted betrayal that caused 3.5 to be born.

Yep

6) As has been pointed out, any 3.0/3.5 player who wants to keep playing should have no problem doing so. Even people who are totally dependent upon modules will have no shortage of already-printed material. I conservatively estimate 20 years of weekly gaming sessions would be required to get through even half of the published settings and adventures for 3.0/3.5. 20x52=1040 gaming sessions...if their group did not take holidays off from gaming, they might have a chance to hack through about 50% of what is out there.

Once again, yep. My reaction when 3rd edition was announced was a bit of sadness, since it looked like the most recent spate of AD&D publications had turned the corner (Dragon mag had gotten good again, the supplements were actually useful, some good scenarios), but I had a nice pile of 81 Dungeon mags plus numerous unused adventures and sourcebooks..I realized it would take my decades of playing to work through everything published for AD&D before I might even have to WRITE SOMETHING MYSELF. 3e if anything is even more bloated.....

7) Anyone who cannot convert adventures between rules editions is not a very competent gamer. If you pay attention to game designers like Gary Gygax or Rob Kuntz, you will hear them talk about design first and rules conversions second. The play is the thing. Rules are just stat blocks.

These kids today, no imagination, they're too lazy, grumble...

8) Who says that anyone has to lose anything because a new edition of a game has appeared? There is no rule requiring anyone to keep up with the Jones family. Why not just ignore the new rules edition?

Exactly

9) Brick and mortar gaming stores are doomed anyway...just as small-time booksellers are also doomed. At this point, a surviving store has either greatly diversified or they are out of business. CCG's were a money-maker. Miniatures wargaming is still a moneymaker. Has anyone seriously been making money on RPG's for some time now without other game interests to support it?

I don't know if "doomed" is the right word.....but if someone out there is relying on RPG sales alone, they are in a lot of trouble. Diversity is the watchword. The local store carries minis, comics, back issue comics, new and used dvds, toys, and more in additon to RPGs, and is doing great.

10) Who says that 4.0 won't be a smash-em-up rockin' good game? Just because it is WOTC doesn't necessarily mean that it won't be good.

11) Who says that the online component of 4.0 won't be the best thing to ever happen to gaming? It might just drag a lot of 40 year-old gamers back to the table when they find they can meet their old gaming buddies online. 4.0 might be the biggest online family reunion ever.

Yeh, and Lindsay Lohan is going to find Jesus any day now....

12) Who says that the demise of 3.0/3.5 won't be a good thing? It also means the demise of all the splat books and second-rate game supplements that supported those games. 4.0 might just be the surgery Dungeons and Dragons requires.

Because they said the same thing at the demise of 2nd edition "This'll put an end to all the splat books and second rate game supplements and crappy modules..." Soon we'll have piles of all new splat books and second rate game supplements and such for 4th ed...it's like the stachybocturus mold, you can't keep it from spreading...

13) Does anyone here really want Dungeons and Dragons to go out of print and fall silent? After all the bashing of WOTC, aren't they the ones who have sustained and revived Dungeons and Dragons...giving it easily another decade of life and supporting an enormous gaming sub-culture? Does anyone here really want the web to fall silent and the doors to close and Dungeons and Dragons go away?

14) Does anyone here really think that a different fantasy RPG is likely to sustain the sub-culture and capture its imagination like Dungeons and Dragons?

I think in the long run the legions of AD&D fans finally grudgingly agreed that 3E was a good thing for the hobby....maybe they didn't play it, but it kept the fire burning, let a few really good supplements, modules and books be released, and just maybe brought a few people either back to the fold or into RPGs for the first time.

15) Any 3.0/3.5 player who is so outraged about 4.0 that he has to have a physical confrontation over it is welcome to attack me. But...I warn you...the resulting battle will involve the 3.0/3.5 rules for grappling, tripping and fighting from prone. If pressed, I will force you to adjudicate a bull rush action! If that doesn't give you pause to consider then pack a lunch and bring your rules lawyer. The battle is gonna take a while!

As long as there is no Great Cleave involved.....

Mike B.

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g026r
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:23 pm

Badmike wrote:Yeh, and Lindsay Lohan is going to find Jesus any day now....

I dunno, I'm pretty sure she's running through the "celebrity trainwreck" list fairly quickly. Which means that it won't be long before she either cleans up and find Jesus or ODs. :lol:

deimos3428
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:12 am

You've made a ton of well-reasoned, well thought out points. I'm focusing on just the minority that I disagree with; please don't take offense or think I'm bashing, here. You scored 12/15, so that ain't bad...

FormCritic wrote:10) Who says that 4.0 won't be a smash-em-up rockin' good game? Just because it is WOTC doesn't necessarily mean that it won't be good.

I doubt it, but sure, it might be utterly fantastic. As I've stated before, that's irrelevant to me. I simply disapprove of their business practices, and everyone must draw their own line on that one. They've crossed mine.

Form Critic wrote:13) Does anyone here really want Dungeons and Dragons to go out of print and fall silent? After all the bashing of WOTC, aren't they the ones who have sustained and revived Dungeons and Dragons...giving it easily another decade of life and supporting an enormous gaming sub-culture? Does anyone here really want the web to fall silent and the doors to close and Dungeons and Dragons go away?

In order: no, no, and no.

No, I don't want it to go out of print. (I do want WotC to fail economically and be forced to sell off the IP to more capable hands.)

No, they didn't sustain and revive the game. (That honour goes to those who play the game -- any version, but particularly those in the out-of-print community who continue to adapt and expand the game under numerous projects.)

No, nobody wants D&D to go away. (Some of us would like it "back", though. When they're finished mangling what's left.)

Form Critic wrote:14) Does anyone here really think that a different fantasy RPG is likely to sustain the sub-culture and capture its imagination like Dungeons and Dragons?

No, but I think it's more likely than that 4E will be a fantastic game. I can only suspend disbelief so far, y'know.

sauromatian
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:50 am

FormCritic wrote:We first saw the "supplements" but could not figure out how they related to the Holmes Basic Set rules we had access to.

There's a delicate balance to maintain. I think the Holmes book is pretty good that way, although as you noted, it tried & failed to be the gateway to OD&D.

I resorted to photocopied booklets for the OD&D game I ran many years later, in order to organize the information in a usable fashion. If I ever run that game again, I'll do it with the Holmes book plus only one other supplement at a time, like Eldritch Wizardry or Outdoor Survival. That way players won't have to worry about sifting through a maze of obscure material.

As a collector, sorting out the fine historical details is half the fun. What was it like to play the game with geomorphs & monster/treasure lists instead of modules, or without thief abilities? What was behind the enigmatic witch PC class, introduced anonymously & promised for AD&D?

On the other side of the spectrum I have a D&D promotional made a few years ago for Free Comic Book Day. Like much of the recent introductory product, it really drags out the idea of an RPG to the point where it's unintentionally funny.

The DM/narrator in the comic has this incredible grinning-while-frowning expression in every panel, as if he has some kind of neurotic inner conflict about teaching the game to his group of players.

Ultimately, the actual core mechanics of the game can be buried by either too much explanatory/introductory material, or not enough.

FormCritic
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:02 am

sauromatian wrote:There's a delicate balance to maintain. I think the Holmes book is pretty good that way, although as you noted, it tried & failed to be the gateway to OD&D.

For us, it was a great gateway to AD&D. Perfect timing, in fact.

For a long while we honestly thought that either 3rd level was the highest possible level or that 2000 experience points per level was standard all the way up.

Greyhawk, Blackmoore, Eldritch Wizardry and Gods Demi-gods and Heroes were arcane and wonderful...but we never did figure out how to use them.

Gods, Demi-gods and Heroes was, however, my first introduction to a huge range of mythological and literary traditions. For instance, It was the first place I ever heard of Elric and the first thing I read about Conan. Much of the knowledge about Near Eastern religions that I started with in college came from that book, or its hardback AD&D successor. For instance, when I think of Gilgamesh the picture I see is the drawing from the Gods and Demi-Gods hardback by James Ward.

Lots of guys my age acquired their first basic educations in history and culture through D&D. Who knew that was gonna happen?

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

flying_purple_monkfish
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:29 am

Killjoy> I'd love to! hahaha. But I don't think I can afford the plane fare. Alas, i'll have to just stick with the student nationals, which are always a laugh. I foiled the gms attempt at TPK last year, man that was fun. Everyone but my character was killed horribly by a dragon, my character took the artifact we were meant to be returning, noted the dragon was distracted by killing his party members and legged it. ahahaha.. good times, good times.

I'm certainly going to have a look at 4th ed when it comes out, I wont neccisarily buy it unless it really brings something new to the table but i'll look at it. It could either be very good and streamlined, or very very bad and catered to the munchkin player, only time will tell. I really do hope the tiefling rumour is false, poor tieflings really have been made so damned generic now and I love tieflings! Gnomes will always be my thing though, ahh gnomes.
(and for those that have played NWN, did anyone else find the tiefling in HOTU really freaking annoying with his constant "ahh but i'm a tiefling" ramblings? WHo the hell cares if you have fiend blood somewhere in your ancestry, it's not that intersting after you mention it the 20th time! Besides, do normal people usually go around saying "hi, i'm george and my great great great great grandmother was swedish" (ahahaha i'm now compairing demons to the swedes, this can only end badly.. ))

anyway, i'll be thumbing through 4th ed at some point i'm sure, lamenting over some things and going "ooo shiny" for others. Lets just hope the art is better than 3rd ed and they don't pull another 3.5 stunt. Lets get it right first time shall we WOTC?

"Somehow, in hell I knew there would be mushrooms"

killjoy32
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:35 am

i will certainly have a look at 4E when it arrives. the same as i did when 3E and 3.5E arrived. i just didnt take to either system. didnt "feel" right to me. i feel edgy whenever there are too many rules/tables blah blah to take in. as i said, what i like to get from a game, i dont feel you can from any of them formats. there is too much there to interrupt game flow for me.

but hey to each their own, thats just my view. i also dont like the idea of this on-line subscription format either. to me, that feels like i am being "forced" into something then and i don't like that. but again, thats just me.

as i said to Jeff at GenCon, despite the fact that i dont like 3/3.5E, some of the stuff for it is absolutely amazing - especially the art and the ideas. i just don't like the application and the game play is just not how i like it.

i hope for gaming sake that it pulls off and is a successful system, but i can't help but feel that a totally different element of the market is being targeted by what they are doing.

Al

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Agent Cooper
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:56 am

FormCritic wrote:15) Any 3.0/3.5 player who is so outraged about 4.0 that he has to have a physical confrontation over it is welcome to attack me. But...I warn you...the resulting battle will involve the 3.0/3.5 rules for grappling, tripping and fighting from prone. If pressed, I will force you to adjudicate a bull rush action! If that doesn't give you pause to consider then pack a lunch and bring your rules lawyer. The battle is gonna take a while!

NO.. DEAR GOD....NOOOOO!!!

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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:05 am

I will certainly give it a look- the online element is intriguing(but I bet it wont be backward compatible!)

But I dont hold out much hope 3e just didnt work for me as a game,but thats just me stuck in my ways!!! :roll:

FormCritic
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:35 pm

Cushionsnbeans wrote:I will certainly give it a look- the online element is intriguing(but I bet it wont be backward compatible!)

But I dont hold out much hope 3e just didnt work for me as a game,but thats just me stuck in my ways!!!

I am not understanding the concept of "backward compatible." Several people have mentioned it so far.

A gnoll from the OD&D Holmes Basic Set could show up in 3.5 and take a swing without a problem. The numbers are still the same.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

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