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D&D version 4.0--what do YOU think it's going to be like
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sauromatian
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:42 pm

JZavoda wrote:Maybe it is impossible now for a new player to experience what 1E was, ehst s new horizon opened up, how it inspired, obssessed, what magic it was to step into a world and live adventures that had only been in books, to play a hero alongside other heroes, to fight monsters, to die gloriously or foolishly, to sit among friends and share an adventure, and have stories of your own.

Yeah man, these kids today just don't understand what it was like. We stopped a war, man. We changed the world. We knew how to rock 'n roll, how to take off our clothes at Woodstock & dance in the rain with Mother Nature & get back in touch with the Earth. These kids today, they could never appreciate it. We were in touch with the cosmic consciousness. They've got their MTV & their Eminem, they don't know what the sixties were really like. Spare change, man?

deimos3428
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:47 pm

MadMaligor wrote:But we digressed from a 4E to roleplay argument hehehe. 4E has no more or less roleplay in it than 1E. Thats my belief based on what I have been experiencing.

There does seem to be a difference in terminology. (No, I'm not referring to the hackneyed and overused "roll-playing" vs. "role-playing" issue. Let's not go there.)

The word 'role' can mean 'function'. In this usage, the fighter fights, the thief thieves, the wizard wizzes, and the monsters monst. That seems to be the modern usage. So roleplaying in that sense means utilizing your abilities to fulfill a function. That's also where dice-rolling may or may not be involved.

The word 'role' can also mean 'character', as in a novel or play. In this usage, the fighter has a pre-defined individual personality. That's the old-school definition, in general. So roleplaying with this usage means developing said character's personality. Dice are irrelevant, unless your player-character is actually a modron, or something.

It's a subtle distinction, but an important one. In the former, cool powers help define a being's role (ie. function). eg. a Kobold Dragonshield is designed to frusterate melee fighters. That's it's role. Such critters have no role (ie. character) in the latter sense at all, generally speaking. Nobody really cares about the inner-working of the average kobold's brain. Roles are reserved for NPCs, certain plot-critical and usually rather intelligent monsters, and player characters.

Once that distinction is understood, it's easy to see why increasingly complex and pre-defined rulesets do inhibit roleplaying, at least in the latter usage of the word. A kobold might have 29 hp and the ability to jump backwards, but they still aren't "interesting" because they lack a personality. Same for our paladin Dragonborn friend.

This has nothing to do with "story crafting/telling", which is a travesty of the opposite direction. D&D in all it's pre-2000 forms is fairly well balanced between the two extremes of too many and too few rules. There's some leeway on either side of that benchmark, naturally. BECMI is a bit more rules-light. 4E might well be closer to the middle than 3E, I don't know, but that's not really saying much. From what I've seen they haven't nudged it sufficiently back towards "sensible".

killjoy32
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:18 pm

so is everything done on a board with miniatures, or will there still be part of the game doen through role-play? or is it all board etc

Are we nearly there yet?

sauromatian
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:40 pm

killjoy32 wrote:so is everything done on a board with miniatures, or will there still be part of the game doen through role-play? or is it all board etc

AD&D1 used inches for most distances, "requiring" players to use minis. In fact, complaints regarding 2e/2ePlayersOption/3e/3.5/4e remind me of where I was around 1985 with this game.

Character generation had become tedious to me by that point; I developed a hatred for the sight of the PHB. Going through all the fiddly-bits of filling the tiny boxes on the AD&D1 character sheets was just a chore.

I found a copy of the 1977 blue book at Half-Price, the one I had learned on, & realized that it was still the authentic D&D game to me. Everything on this thread contrasting 4e unfavorably to 1e is exactly what I thought of 1e when it was current.

MadMaligor
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:47 am

JZavoda wrote:
Roleplaying is hard. A bad DM makes for a bad game, even with good players, even with great roleplayers. These 3E/4E games are striving to make up for bad or mediocre DMing by making the game more like a boardgame or a miniatures game. Dungeons & Dragons full circle, back to its pre-roleplay origins.

But it was the roleplay aspects that made D&D and AD&D so much more than just a miniatures game, and the roleplay aspect is what made it so hard to sell outside of a niche market. 2E tried to spoon feed the roleplaying parts with character kits and more monter books, more supplements, more rulebooks, and that was where the money was. Only what made the game great were a handful of modules and base settings that DMs and players could make their own. And 2E ended that as well with novels and linked adventures and setting updates that made many DMs afraid to change anything or fill in the blanks on their own, or just say NO to their players.

1E forced DMs to create, to roleplay, because there weren't endless shelves of supplements and settings and adventures, and the game wasn't a boardgame or a miniatures game, it was a roleplaying game. And it was complete. And a complete rule system doesn't make any money for the company, better to revamp the rules and sell more rulebooks, like the newset bit of fashion wear.

Calling 4E or 3E Dungeons and Dragons makes me a little sick, a bit revolted at where this wonderous game of the imagination has ended up. It wouldn't bother me at all if the left the D&D part out of the name and called it something else. Maybe it is impossible now for a new player to experience what 1E was, ehst s new horizon opened up, how it inspired, obssessed, what magic it was to step into a world and live adventures that had only been in books, to play a hero alongside other heroes, to fight monsters, to die gloriously or foolishly, to sit among friends and share an adventure, and have stories of your own. Listening to the stories told today is akin to listening to gamers talk about a game of risk, I rolled a 6, a 5, and 2 and he rolled two 4's... dice talk, nothing to stir the imagination. Or talk of characters so powerful they wreske Thor for his hammer, or start the game with more firepower than an armored platoon, uber talk.

There can be roleplaying in 4E and balance and great DMs and great roleplayers, but why would they bother? AD&D is already here, cheaply had, and they would need to remove little if anything, change little, and they would be roleplaying.

What will 4E be like? Exspensive. Very Expensive.

JZ I cant disagree more. There were always bad DMs and Players both, in any edition. 4E wont help you if you suck at roleplay and have a closed mind. If on the other hand you take to heart whats written in the DMG/PHB I can actually see a reversal of the powergaming that was 3.5, and kids getting back to what was fun about D&D. Its just that instead of metal minis and graph paper you have plastic minis and dungeon tiles.

1E was far from complete as well, heck any edition will be. Thats what house rules are for. Thats why I mourn the loss of Dragon/Dungeon magazine. They were wonderful for ideas and storyline. Gleemax makes me a sad panda, but its the wave of the future and its not going away *sigh*. 1E had its share of supplements though, a good ton of it (Greyhawk being the biggest example). You all should know, most of you have been collecting the stuff for years. It fills up box after box or shelf after shelf...if the ol wife lets ya =)

Roleplay is in the head and the heart, if you got it, you got it. D&D is just a conduit for that creativity. OD&D, Basic/Expert, AD&D, 2nd, 3.0 to 3.5, and now 4th. Ever since the Basic box came out the ball started rolling on revisions. Heck I would even say that as soon as some of the supplements for OD&D came out Gygax himself probably looked down the road and saw the potential for so much innovation and change to the rules. There is a good argument to be made that D&D is and has always been about changing the rules.

About price. I would also say that I remember shelling out a ton of cash on 1E. Storebought D&D has never been what I would call cheap. I wouldnt say expensive either though. It certainly is the best bang for your buck on the planet as far as Im concerned.

I will end with this. There is no better game than the original D&D you were brought up with and played. I would also argue there is really no substitue for a fun game of Original D&D as well. We always have a "back to the old days" gaming night every now and then. The nostalgia alone is thick in the air when we play. You cant beat that.

MM

Okay, I can't help but ask, but what exactly is a "potato wedger"? - bclarkie

Last edited by MadMaligor on Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

MadMaligor
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:01 am

killjoy32 wrote:so is everything done on a board with miniatures, or will there still be part of the game doen through role-play? or is it all board etc

No, and yes. You can play the game outside of combat just the way you would normally. If you have a cartographer in your group (the consumate scholar or explorer type who wants to know all the environmental details) you end up with all kinds of hand drawn maps that can be used as you would in any game. If your players like to go off memory, that works too.

But combat is very difficult without minis and a mat. The problems come into play with attacks of opportunity really. If you want to remove that part of the ruleset...then it could be done with a good deal of paper tracking. Oh and you can remove AoO, its not gamebreaking. In fact, there really isnt much that you cant houserule or just flat out remove, with one exception. Healing surges. The way they implemented those it would be very difficult to change the system. In fact, those are the system. Its what makes 4E unique. Everything else I have seen in a prior version in one form or another (even the powers system and the way magic is used...can you say sorcerer?).

Healing surges take a little bit to get used too. But if you buy into why they introduced them and how the system works, its not an issue. They were my make or break for 4E btw...if they didnt work in play our group would have gone back to our 1E/2E campaigns.

Oddly enough, they work =)

MM

Okay, I can't help but ask, but what exactly is a "potato wedger"? - bclarkie

FormCritic
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:38 am

Busman wrote:
If you pre-order from Amazon right now, you can get them for about $62, I've heard Barnes and Noble you can get them for about $55. If you're real desperate I read on another forum that the PDFs of the core rules have already been leaked.

I pre-ordered mine from Amazon early this year with free shipping, I'm expecting the books on or around the 10th of next month.

The Keep of the Shadowfell came the day after release and was $19.07.

Thanks for the tip, Busman.

I used a couple of Barnes and Noble cards I had lying around and I got the set for $59, including shipping...which includes a Barnes and Noble membership 10% off.

People give me Barnes and Noble cards for every Christmas, Birthday, or random gift...so it was good to get to use them for collecting.

At a combined price of $20 per book, that puts the set in the same rough range as the original AD&D set and seems worth it even if I don't launch a 4.0 campaign. Also, the hardbacks came in a boxed set.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:34 am

stumbling tiger wrote:
I hate to reveal my complete stupidity on a public forum, but I have a question, Mark. Your formulation of the engine is concise and elegantly stated, but I don't get the ' 1=5%' and ' "to hit" = x' part, maybe because I never played 3.x. In OD&D through 2E, x = a number between 0 and 21 determined by a chart in the rule book (attacker's level vs defender's AC). In 3E, x = defender's AC , a number between (?) 10 and (??) three billion.

I just noticed your post, Stumbling Tiger.

Since you ask, I will risk being horribly pedantic and indulge myself thusly:

To explain:

100 divided by 20 = 5

Thus, each side of a d20 = the # rolled x 5%. For instance, 15 x 5% = 75%

So, for instance, there is a base 50% chance of hitting AC 10 (5% x 10 = 50%) In this case the "to hit" roll required 10. Thus, X=10.

Therefore, AC = the % in 5% increments needed to hit. You could roll a d100 to simulate the same effect, but the d20 will suffice.

That is the basic engine of D&D. A gnoll from the early OD&D pamphlets could run into a 4th edition battle, swing an axe and do damage with really no modifications to the rules.

There are other RPG's that have more "realistic" combat systems involving critical hits, arcane charts and the like. Shadowrun would be an example of a game with a fun background that was hopelessly mired in a game system involving "successes" on giant handfuls of six-sided dice...with counter "successes" rolled with giant handfuls of dice by the defender. The math is completely different from the relatively simple percentages of D&D....and took huge amounts of time to settle even one round of action.

The original AD&D armor class system adopted the odd tradition of designating an unarmored and stationary target as AC 9, and then counting down from there to -10. This system was familiar to us all, but it is counter-intuitive. THACO was an attempt to simplify the system, but the actual numbers were drawn from the very same charts and the very same terminology.

Starting with 3.0, the game designers made the entirely logical decision to have AC 10 be the AC of a stationary, unarmored target. They then counted up instead of down. This is a more intuitive way of expressing the identicle math...a model that is much more logical to those who have not played AD&D. The math, however, remained exactly the same.

Even in AD&D, the player-characters were always amalgamations of various rules stacks to create the best killer characters. (Although apparently there were monastic communities of gamers who did not create min/max characters for AD&D.) Unearthed Arcana just poured fuel on an already extant fire. The Dungeoneer's Survivial Guide, the Wilderness Survival Guide and Oriental Adventures tossed on ad hoc skills systems that only futher mired the game.

What makes 3.0/3.5 stand out from AD&D and 2nd Edition is that the monsters got tougher to match the player-characters.

Another basic change in the rules for 3.0/3.5 was giving tangible bonuses or penalties for all character statistics, not just for 15-18. That was a major help to the monsters, who now get bonuses and penalties just like player characters.

Yet another basic change to the rules was allowing armor classes above what used to be AC -10. In 3.0/3.5 what used to be AC -10 would be AC 30. It is possible for some player characters to stack armor class bonuses at high level to exceed AC 30, a a few ultra-powerful monsters do so as well. Since a 20th level fighter has a base 100% chance of hitting AC 20 (on his first swing), AC 30 is not really all that high.

Still, the math is exactly the same: An OD&D gnoll launches an attack on a 20th level 3.5 fighter.....he rolls a 20....he hits...he rolls a d6 (like they used to do in OD&D) and scores a 4....which takes 4 hit points from the 20th level fighter. No difference. Exactly the same math and basically the exact same game.

All the rest is just style.

Possibly the only valid argument I have heard that 3.0 is not D&D came from Deimos (see above).....that rolling a d20 to see if a guard lets you out of jail is not actually role-playing. That is not really a fatal argument, since what happens can involve as much or as little interaction as the DM requires...but it is at least a valid argument.

I sincerely apologize to anyone who is still reading all of this. :lol:

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

MadMaligor
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:33 am

FormCritic wrote:.....Possibly the only valid argument I have heard that 3.0 is not D&D came from Deimos (see above).....that rolling a d20 to see if a guard lets you out of jail is not actually role-playing. That is not really a fatal argument, since what happens can involve as much or as little interaction as the DM requires...but it is at least a valid argument.

I sincerely apologize to anyone who is still reading all of this.

I would also agree that his argument applies to 4E as well. It really does come down to the DM and PC interaction. 4E does a better job of mitigating roleplay inexperience with the skills challenge, but if its used improperly and as a crutch, I can see where his position has merit (something I thought about later because new players and DM's might have a tendency to rely completely on the roll).

I too will appologize for some of what basically amounts to defending 4E on my part. WotC and Hasbro certainly deserve their detractors. I just felt that 4E is worthy of a "look see" for those interested (its not for everyone for sure). I doubt I will try the electronic version, but the actual DM/PC face to face game table play looked interesting. We gave it a shot, and it turned out to be a blast.

Okay, I can't help but ask, but what exactly is a "potato wedger"? - bclarkie

killjoy32
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:14 am

mad mal...

i admire your stance on standing here advocating it. not many would do that to your extent, considering the amount of flaming you likely get

but that said, its extremely unlikely i will ever play it. i dont game that often now. when i get back to GenCon, it will be my first game since being there last year, when i DMd. i just dont have time no more and have too many other things going on in my life, but at least once a year, i will put time aside, to run a good game for friends. i will play 1E, because its what i like. that said, it isnt "really" 1E, its just a base for the few rules that i use.

i just like the game easy and simple and for it to flow.

but you DO make the encounters sound interesting for sure. i just dont like all the silly names thats all.

i went to a con in the UK last year, and i watched this dungeon game. the scenery etc was amazing, but the game itself totally sucked. in the 30 mins or so i stood there, even my daughter got bored. nobody role-played at all. everything was dice based (decision wise) and thats how the game went. it was just so dissappointing!

but from what you are saying, it seems a fair move away from that and to climes i am much more favourable with, so maybe if i am there again and there is a 4E game playing or whatever, i might just sit and watch again and hopefully enjoy it more this time round (btw i think the last one was 3 or 3.5. i wouldnt know the difference either way).

Al

Are we nearly there yet?

MadMaligor
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:54 am

Killjoy...were they using a Dwarven Forge set up?

http://www.dwarvenforge.com/store/home.php

That stuff is fantastic for creating dungeons. If my collecting habits didnt already suck up my limited budget, I would go all out with that stuff.

We will be starting up the true campaign the weekend after the release of the handbooks. All of them want to create their own characters instead of the pre gens and Im not sold on Dragonborn and Tieflings (no one has succumed yet to downloading the illegal PDFs that got leaked, I would rather support the local hobby store anyway).

I will let you know how the new rule impacts the game...I think I will spring it on em without warning. :lol:

Okay, I can't help but ask, but what exactly is a "potato wedger"? - bclarkie

killjoy32
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:03 am

MadMaligor wrote:Killjoy...were they using a Dwarven Forge set up?

http://www.dwarvenforge.com/store/home.php

That stuff is fantastic for creating dungeons. If my collecting habits didnt already suck up my limited budget, I would go all out with that stuff.

We will be starting up the true campaign the weekend after the release of the handbooks. All of them want to create their own characters instead of the pre gens and Im not sold on Dragonborn and Tieflings (no one has succumed yet to downloading the illegal PDFs that got leaked, I would rather support the local hobby store anyway).

I will let you know how the new rule impacts the game...I think I will spring it on em without warning.

MM

it may well have been a dwarven forge setup. i saw them at GenCon last year - some awesome scenery.

shame the game itself spoiled the setting that they were playing it - even the miniatures they were using, sucked too.

but yea, let us know how it goes.

so to actually start the game and have enough stuff to get the game going, how much do you reckon is going to be the rough cash outlay to do so?

Al

Are we nearly there yet?

deimos3428
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:39 am

MadMaligor wrote:I would also agree that his argument applies to 4E as well. It really does come down to the DM and PC interaction. 4E does a better job of mitigating roleplay inexperience with the skills challenge, but if its used improperly and as a crutch, I can see where his position has merit (something I thought about later because new players and DM's might have a tendency to rely completely on the roll).

I too will appologize for some of what basically amounts to defending 4E on my part. WotC and Hasbro certainly deserve their detractors. I just felt that 4E is worthy of a "look see" for those interested (its not for everyone for sure). I doubt I will try the electronic version, but the actual DM/PC face to face game table play looked interesting. We gave it a shot, and it turned out to be a blast.

Crap, you're agreeing with me now? Way to kill the thread, guys. :lol:

We should probably wrap it up anyway, simply because at this point 4E has very little to do with collecting, which is what Acaeum's all about. See y'all in a decade.

I suppose some apologies/explanation on my behalf are in order as well.* I'm no longer willing to be open-minded in WotC's general direction. Everyone needs to make their own call on that, but I folded a long time ago. So anything from them, or anyone defending them gets hit with both barrels, no mercy.

* But not too much, or we'll all have a warm fuzzy feeling, and that's just too after-school special for this crowd.

MadMaligor
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:49 am

killjoy32 wrote:....so to actually start the game and have enough stuff to get the game going, how much do you reckon is going to be the rough cash outlay to do so?

Al

$64 is the Amazon price I believe for the 3 book gift set. Then toss in $25 for the Keep on the Shadowfel, only because I would view it like Keep on the Borderlands or In Search of the Unknown, its the introductory module and gives you a launch point. So for $100 you can get what you need. If you toss in another $50 for battle mats, a DM shield, and character sheets thats about all the extras you will ever need. You could just use/convert an other material you already own, or create an entirely new campaign from scratch like I am using the KotS module and the starter town detailed in the DMG (Fallcrest).

I will likely follow the series of modules they are planning for the "Points of Light in the Darkness" that is the default campaign setting...very much a create your own type of world, but add in alot of extra stuff for depth. I already have a good half dozen crafted NPCs to add to the module as well as a couple of side adventure stories, and a scenario for the start of the PC journey. Its all very "pick and choose" what you want type of stuff so its easy to take things out and put things in.

Killjoy...what I would do though if I were you. Download the bit torrents of the PHB, DMG, and MM out there. All three got leaked to the net and are easy to grab and print. They are all verified as official versions. I am not the type to advocate piracy...but if you are doing it just to see if you like what your reading...I would call that smart shopping

There are even a bunch of people claiming since WotC wont release the names of those involved, that it was planned from the start. Pre-Order sales were boosted like a rocket after the leak. I wouldnt put it past em

Its kinda shady, but actually pretty smart on their part if they did plan it.

MM

ps...any and all smacks to my head will be accepted wholeheartedly for continuing this thread.

Okay, I can't help but ask, but what exactly is a "potato wedger"? - bclarkie

killjoy32
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:24 am

as i said, i doubt very much whether i would ever play the thing, but i would like to read it a little and get more of a feel for what its like, just so i am not TOTALLY ignorant of the thing.

thanks for spending the time going over it all though.

Al

Are we nearly there yet?

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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:43 pm

FormCritic wrote:
To explain:

100 divided by 20 = 5

Thus, each side of a d20 = the # rolled x 5%. For instance, 15 x 5% = 75%

So, for instance, there is a base 50% chance of hitting AC 10 (5% x 10 = 50%) In this case the "to hit" roll required 10. Thus, X=10.

... *sniped*

Sorry I can't turn off my analytical mind, but you have a 55% chance to hit since 1-9 miss and 10-20 hit an AC 10.

ShaneG.

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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:42 pm

Plaag wrote:
Sorry I can't turn off my analytical mind, but you have a 55% chance to hit since 1-9 miss and 10-20 hit an AC 10.

ShaneG.

D'oh!

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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:30 pm

killjoy32 wrote:as i said, i doubt very much whether i would ever play the thing, but i would like to read it a little and get more of a feel for what its like, just so i am not TOTALLY ignorant of the thing.

thanks for spending the time going over it all though.

Al

I plan to wait about a year till 4.5 e comes out.
Then the 4e books will be cheaper on E-bay.

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Stated by me as a PC during a run of Tegel Manor DMed by killjoy at NTRPGCon 2010

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