Shipping Charges (trollandtoad) • Page 12 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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Shipping Charges (trollandtoad)
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Pipswich
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:19 pm

Unlike the use of a reserve... which is supposed to be disclosed...

shill bidding is associated with two ideas...

1. it is undisclosed
2. the bidder has no genuine interest in the transaction (ie. it is done solely to inflate the price and defraud another bidder.)

T&T appears to be disclosed
And, they certainly have material interest in the product.

It is allowable to have incidental gain in the course of doing business. Now, if they are bidding up things they have no genuine commercial interest in reselling (or owning)... that's another matter.

Pipswich Peddles (and trades) for his collection!
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Pipswich
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:21 pm

To frame it differently... an auctioneer using reserves is still an auctioneer.

An auction with a shill bidder... is no longer an auction. It's the deceptive appearance of one... ie.. fraud.

Pipswich Peddles (and trades) for his collection!
http://stores.ebay.com/Pipswich-Peddles

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:41 pm

I see your point on shill bidding, but there have been cases on eBay where sellers with similar stock have bid on eachothers products in order to maintain and control prices in a market.

Framing The Gencon auction issue another way...

Surely the owner of T&T has a competative advantage in the auction? If a book sells for say $10, they pay the same price as any other bidder if they win. But, it costs the other bidder $10 plus the commission (presuming the commission is added on afterwards) plus his registration to bid fee (if there was one). It only costs the owner of T&T $10 plus commission, less their share of the sellers auction fee which was paid, and less their share of the commission profits, and less his share of the takings from the registration to bid fee if there was one. So every single item being bid on has a cheaper net cost to the owner of T&T than it does to any other buyer, and that inbuild financial advantage is only there by virtue of the owner of T&T being on both sides of the arrangement.

And that is not taking into account the percentage he is getting from the increased prices on things that were won by others where T&T were the under bidder, which the owner of T&T would not have otherwise got if he were not involved as the auctioning body.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Kaskoid
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:17 pm

Major Misassumption:
There is no fee tacked onto a sale price. The seller nets the lion's share of the sale price and a small percentage goes to the auction. We (TSR) ran it that way at GenCon since the 1970's; game convention auctions in the States have always run like this, afaik.

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Guidelines, not rules...

GreyM
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:11 pm

I believe I read somewhere (http://www.gencon.com/2009/indy/pm/events/auction.aspx) that the seller at the gencon auction gets 85% of the selling price. This other 15% goes where? If its in the pocket of the guy that OWNS T&T, no one other than mbassoc2003 sees an issue with that?

I.E. T&T bids something up to $1000....the seller gets $850 of it...the "PARTNERSHIP" gets $150 so net cost to T&T is $850 or thereabouts. Sure the books show the cost of $1000 to T&T but the other book shows $150 into "the partnership"s account. If you (or I) make that bid at $1001, thats $1001 out of our pocket.

I know I'm simplifying things here, but thats pretty much what happens isn't it?

Someone can say T&T and "The Partnership" aren't the same company...and its true....but lets be honest....the owner of one is the co-owner of the other. Just by bidding its a win/win for him. They'll either win (and send a portion of the selling price back into his pocket) or lose the auction but increase the price its sold at and therefore throw more money into his pocket.

As with all my posts...this is just my 2 cents.

Pipswich
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:25 pm

It doesn't bother me because it appears that they are capitalists and they work for their money.

They have capital, inventory, staff, advertising and assume risk of going out of business in an industry where, frankly, most seem unable to make it fly as a livelihood producing business.

It's a win/win for them perhaps. But, it's also a win/win for the consignor seller. That evens it out in my book, especially when they don't appear to be hiding anything.

I sure don't want to spend $1-2k to go bid on common mass produced lots at Gen Con or Origin auctions. (Since people claim that's what they bought). T&T can have all of it... for a buck an item and it doesn't mean a thing to me unless the profit helps sustain a business that keeps the hobby marketed to broad audiences online. I probably benefit from that, indirectly.

Pipswich Peddles (and trades) for his collection!
http://stores.ebay.com/Pipswich-Peddles

Mars
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:07 pm

The one question that remains open for me is:

Does T&T pay for their auctions after they win them and do they get charged the 3% buyer's commission (like everyone else)?

Or do they get away from paying this fee since the credit card details go through their store, etc?

If they do not have to pay this, then although it is 3%, they do get an advantage.

Pipswich
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:54 pm

That's just accounting between the Partnership and T&T isn't it?

However, they decide to work out credit card fees and their own business accounting it doesn't seem like it's our business.

If I were invested in "The Partnership" I would expect to get paid the fees.

If i were subcontracting cc services to the Partnership (or employees, or other services)... I would expect to be compensated for them.

To a third party (probably all of us) it's a wash how they split the money at the end of the day.

They earned it and however they split it up doesn't mean beans to me.

Unless they fail to pay us as consignors... or don't give designated proceeds to charity... the rest of us have no right to question their business accounting. (not that that stops people around here from feeling entitled to privileged information, lol)

Pipswich Peddles (and trades) for his collection!
http://stores.ebay.com/Pipswich-Peddles

Mars
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:37 pm

Pipswich wrote:That's just accounting between the Partnership and T&T isn't it?

Yes, I'm sure most of these details are really between T&T, The Partnership and GenCon and not really any of our business but I like details and real numbers for things so I ask anyway.

But, from the way it is worded, I am guessing here that The Partnership takes the 15% of the sale fee and T&T collects 3% as the commission for accepting payment (which is apparently charged whether you pay cash or credit). Note that this is generally more than Paypal charges as a fee but probably less that what a buyer's commission at other auctions such as a car or art auction could be.

For those that think T&T already have an advantage in the auction, it is another few percent in their favour. And also, if T&T are running the sales through their account, then even as a subcontractor one could argue that T&T are part of the people running the auction. I am guessing this is what makes them a "sponsor" of the auction.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:37 am

Kaskoid wrote:Major Misassumption:
There is no fee tacked onto a sale price. The seller nets the lion's share of the sale price and a small percentage goes to the auction. We (TSR) ran it that way at GenCon since the 1970's; game convention auctions in the States have always run like this, afaik.

That's why I said "presuming the commission is added on afterwards". I knew there was a commission, I just didn't know whether it was paid by the seller or the buyer. So, seller pays 15%.

GreyM wrote:I believe I read somewhere (http://www.gencon.com/2009/indy/pm/events/auction.aspx) that the seller at the gencon auction gets 85% of the selling price. This other 15% goes where? If its in the pocket of the guy that OWNS T&T, no one other than mbassoc2003 sees an issue with that?

I.E. T&T bids something up to $1000....the seller gets $850 of it...the "PARTNERSHIP" gets $150 so net cost to T&T is $850 or thereabouts. Sure the books show the cost of $1000 to T&T but the other book shows $150 into "the partnership"s account. If you (or I) make that bid at $1001, thats $1001 out of our pocket.

I know I'm simplifying things here, but thats pretty much what happens isn't it?

Someone can say T&T and "The Partnership" aren't the same company...and its true....but lets be honest....the owner of one is the co-owner of the other. Just by bidding its a win/win for him. They'll either win (and send a portion of the selling price back into his pocket) or lose the auction but increase the price its sold at and therefore throw more money into his pocket.

As with all my posts...this is just my 2 cents.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. It is simplified for the sake of making it clear, and there are a whole load of extra financial benefits to T&T tacked on too, but you sum it up very succinctly.

Am I the only one who finds this type of arrangement morally questionable? We're not talking a few items here. We're talking about T&T controlling the sale and final price of thoustands of auctions if reports from board members are to be believed.

Also, to clarify a point in the charity side of the auctions, are the associated fees paid by the buyer and the seller outwith the final price of the item given to charity, or do those fees go to The Partnership for volunteering to run said auction?

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

ashmire13
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:48 am

mbassoc2003 wrote:That's pretty much it in a nutshell. It is simplified for the sake of making it clear, and there are a whole load of extra financial benefits to T&T tacked on too, but you sum it up very succinctly.

Am I the only one who finds this type of arrangement morally questionable?

I think GreyM nails it and clarifies the question you asked and the same that I asked previously.

So for the 15% of each sale going to the Partnership, it benefits them that T&T bid on everything. But, I guess the point also raised elsewhere is that they don't bid the item up beyond market price so are they really making a huge impact?

However, is 'shilling' on items only called such when it is done in private? Is it still not 'shilling' when you opening bid on items to raise their price?

Regardless of the US/UK 'moral' standings, it does seem that this is legally acceptable in the US and doesn't seem to be in the UK. I guess that's where you have to leave it.

At least it would appear to be clear in my mind what happens now and the legal or cultural differences are the real point in discussion, as nothing is going to change what happens and the auctioneers who help during GenCon are clearly happy with how things work.

And with them (both) being highly respected individuals in the hobby and this site, I accept their view that things are above board in the US like this.

Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:36 am

Indeed. Only time will tell whether or not the buying public is going to accept this inequity. Add together the bias towards T&T corporate's bid position, the rudeness and incompetence/inexperience of some of their staff, and the lack of confidence in the auctions to return good prices, and you have all the ingredients of a precarious business.

I hope for the sake of Gencon's reputation that the perceived bias towards T&T's bid position is addressed, and that in future they choose to address the training, experience and politeness of their auction customer interface.

They could also extend that training to T&T's online store and sales staff, as it is their ineptitude, rudeness and integrity that sparked this thread.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Johnson
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:51 am

Hi,

unfortunately, there appears to be no-one else to run the auction tho.
Only someone making money out of it is likely to run it.

The UK version collapsed. All the profits from it went to Charity - so no-one was really bothered to run it even half-properly.

Sad, and highly annoying, but true.

Cheers,
Malc

I have a plan so cunning, you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel.

Tharizdun
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:26 am

I hope this thread never ends :roll:

The only good parts now are when Frank answers something for the last time again!

Johnson
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:38 am

Cake.

Cake anyone?

Cheers,
Malc

I have a plan so cunning, you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel.

gyg
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:22 am

I think this has gone on a bit long now, and no-one is ever going to see the others point of view, Whether the reasons are cultural, personal or whatever.

I feel though that the Gencon auction has a 'bad taste' - I simply can't see that the T&T/Partnership thing can ever smell right. (Let's face it, T&T are effectively writing cheques to the Partnership for their fees, and this doesn't seem right. (Handy though - I could write a cheque to myself and put it into my other companys bank account all in one easy hit, no messing around with going to different bank branches and waiting for it to clear, or worrying whether it would bounce :wink:

))

You can never have too much of something you didn't need in the first place.

Johnson
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:25 am

Hi,

and thinking about it, the T&T buyers will pay more for items at the auction than they will elsewhere (I know this from personal experience).

Cheers,
Malc

I have a plan so cunning, you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel.

Gus Landt
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:43 am

I am not making any claims about any impropriety. I am just trying to sum up the argument. Unless I am mistaken, the argument is this:

Normal buyer off the street, bidding $10 on an item and winning:
$1 for the bid card
$10 for the item
$0.30 to pay for it

Cost for $10 item = $11.30

T&T, bidding $10 on an item and winning:
$10 for the item
-$0.75 (15%, or $1.50, of the item price goes to The Partnership. The owner of T&T is around half of the partnership, meaning he gets around half of this price, or $0.75)

Cost for the $10 item = $9.25

AGAIN, I am not making the claim that this is what actually goes on. I am merely trying to summarize the argument. Did I summarize correctly?

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