Old Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread • Page 108 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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Old Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread
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jasonw1239
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:09 am

Norway may have the option of giving him a 21 year sentence for each individual murder.

re: Amy Winehouse - I am truly surprised that she has lasted this long. Next on the list...Lindsay Lohan and her ilk. :roll:

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Kingofpain89
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:34 am

Badmike wrote:They are woefully unprepared as a country for any sort of violence (1.5 hours for police to reach the assassin as he sat there shooting down kids?) and they are already giving excuses as to how this could happen.

Well to be fair to the police, most of them were probably responding to the bomb that had gone off in Oslo. And Utoya Island, which is only reachable by ferry, is 24 miles from the city center (Google maps shows about half that to the city outskirts). It is heavily forested all around and the camp buildings are mostly within the trees. So odds are if you were driving by on the highway that skirts the lake you wouldnt see anything. And if you did hear the gunshots, you probably wouldnt know where they were coming from.

I used to go to a scout camp that was 20 miles from the nearest town and one or two adults at the camp maybe had a pistol. We had .22 rifles but those were always locked up at the gun range. If some nut decided to drive into camp and start shooting, it would have been quite a long time before cops arrived to check out the scene. That was in the days before cell phones so that would definitely be expected. But I havent read in any of the news reports if any of the kids or adults had phones or two-way radios on them or if they had service enough to be able make a call.

jason1239 wrote:Norway may have the option of giving him a 21 year sentence for each individual murder.

That is my understanding of that particular law. If it wasnt, odds are their government would swiftly pass a new one to take care of him for the rest of his life.

You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way. - Homer Simpson

TheHistorian
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:39 am

Chucho68 wrote:Gaming, of course! Already have a few good leads.

Gaming stores in the immediate area are Pandemonium (which you appear to have found), Compleat Strategist (barely worth the effort), and Hobby Bunker (pretty interesting). All are quite close to subway stops.

Areas of interest/knowledge: Harn, WFRP, Ars Magica, anything BRP based such as CoC, Runequest, Pendragon and all their related games

Badmike
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:38 am

jasonw1239 wrote:Norway may have the option of giving him a 21 year sentence for each individual murder.

re: Amy Winehouse - I am truly surprised that she has lasted this long. Next on the list...Lindsay Lohan and her ilk.

Lindsay and Charlie Sheen would be next up on my Death Pool for sure.

Good thinking about the 21 year sentence per murder, still, that belays the point....what if he had only killed one person? Are there cases of murderers in Norway only going to jail for 21 years for cold bloodedly killing someone, then confessing, knowing they would be roaming free eventually? That might actually not be a bad tradeoff for a lot of folks.

Mike B.

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mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:56 am

Very few countries lock people up for consecutive sentences, because very few countries have the space or the money to be able to fund such sentences. In the EU it is illegale to force an inmate to undertake work whilst incarserated, and it is illegal to penalise an inmate who chooses not to undertake some for of 'program'. The tree huggers in the UK have ensured we have the most comfortable and lenient prison systems in the world, and for many, it is a far more comfortable life than living in the community.

It is the Socialists who are to blame for the relaxed attitudes towards crime in Europe. For them, this guy should have been helped sooner, and is a product of an uncaring world. If he'd been hugged more as a child he's have been a better guy. Maybe it's karma; he lashed out at the Liberal lefties and they got bit by the cumulating consequences of their social politics.

A more pertenant question might be, why do Norwegian political parties hold 'summer camps' for its youth. We haven't seen that sort of training of young minds since Germany. There is soething very unsavery about in Norwegian politics and the spotlight of attention may well be a good thing to come out of this attrocity.

But then, I suspect that was the point.

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MichaelC
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:10 pm

Badmike wrote:Good thinking about the 21 year sentence per murder, still, that belays the point....what if he had only killed one person? Are there cases of murderers in Norway only going to jail for 21 years for cold bloodedly killing someone, then confessing, knowing they would be roaming free eventually? That might actually not be a bad tradeoff for a lot of folks.

Mike B.

Not exactly a cold-blooded murder followed by a confession, but Varg Vikernes, in 1994, was found guilty of murdering Ã˜ystein Aarseth as well as burning down four churches in Norway. He was sentenced to 21 years in prison (and according to reports, smiled as the Guilty verdict was read for each count). While there, he recorded two hit dark ambient record albums under the name Burzum, received permission to leave prison every so often to spend time with his family, and was let out on parole after serving 15 years of his twenty-one year sentence.

If you're going to go on a murderous, arson-soaked, bomb-chucking rampage, Norway seems to be the best place. In-cell access to synthesizers to record and sell your music, weekends off with your kids, and you're out after a mere 15 years? Why not?

SimperingToad
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:23 pm

Badmike wrote:They are woefully unprepared as a country for any sort of violence (1.5 hours for police to reach the assassin as he sat there shooting down kids?) and they are already giving excuses as to how this could happen.

Compare this with the 4 hours the police waited in Columbine. Those photo ops are *ahem* murder.

By contrast, there is the Texas Tower. I caught a lengthy interview several years ago with one of the guys who nailed the perp. Two cops go in to get him. Two. He credited the armed locals who kept the shooter pinned down for giving them the opportunity.

Gnat the Beggar wrote:This guy admits to slaying 85 to 98 people, using bombs and guns to do the job.
Saying it was atrocious but needed.

"The damage people cause to the planet is a function of demographics-it is equal to the degree of development. One American burdens the earth much more than twenty Bangladeshes... This is a terrible thing to say. In order to stabilize world population, we must eliminate 350,000 people per day. It is a horrible thing to say, but it's just as bad not to say it." - Jacques Cousteau, UNESCO Courier, 1991

This guy is small fry; like the corner drug dealer. You don't hear about the 'big boys' who are mass murderers or advocate it. Unless they are on the losing side in a war.

JasonZavoda wrote:The amazing thing is that the Amy Winehouse overdose is getting about 10 times the news coverage.

Why is it so amazing? The foibles of false gods trump anything of real importance. You didn't actually expect news agencies to be free from agendas, right? :wink:

mbassoc2003 wrote:We haven't seen that sort of training of young minds since Germany.

Such 'training' has actually been going on for some time outside of Germany, but here's a recent example I was made aware of not too long ago:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14 ... ml?_r=1&hp

FormCritic
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:46 pm

SimperingToad wrote:Such 'training' has actually been going on for some time outside of Germany, but here's a recent example I was made aware of not too long ago:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14 ... ml?_r=1&hp

That has to be the coolest scout camp ever.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

TheHistorian
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:02 pm

Badmike wrote:Are there cases of murderers in Norway only going to jail for 21 years for cold bloodedly killing someone, then confessing, knowing they would be roaming free eventually?

Some quick math with homicide rates and population, and it looks like the answer is that, statistically, it almost doesn't happen. In a country of about 4.5 - 5 million people, there are on the order of 25 - 30 murders per year. By way of comparison, population adjusted to be on par with the US, they'd have about 1800-1900/year (verus the 15000 - 16000 that the US actually has).

The point is, this is a likely a freakish lone guman anomaly. It's one of the safest and most prosperous countries on the planet. If I could get work there, I'd move in a heartbeat.

Areas of interest/knowledge: Harn, WFRP, Ars Magica, anything BRP based such as CoC, Runequest, Pendragon and all their related games

Kingofpain89
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:08 pm

SimperingToad wrote:Such 'training' has actually been going on for some time outside of Germany, but here's a recent example I was made aware of not too long ago:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14 ... ml?_r=1&hp

Strange....when I was in scouts, the Explorers were nothing more than a group of teens that wanted to stay in the Boy Scouts but were too old to do so. Girls could also be Explorer scouts. Mainly they were involved in advanced camping, hiking, backpacking, mountain climbing and stuff like that. They also did community projects and the like, but they didnt get merit badges or have to do all the things the younger 'Boy Scouts' did.

Now it looks like its changed since the late 90's. Kids can join as early as 14 and Explorers are geared towards career fields like police, firefighting, aviation, etc.

I was just checking out the different merit badges scouts can get nowadays. There are so many different ones now and quite a few that dont exist anymore, at least not in the same way. They didnt have a Robotics or Geocaching badge when I was a kid. Nor Pets, Dentistry or Graphic Arts merit badges. And the Atomic Energy merit badge is now called Nuclear Science. They probably dont let the kids tour nuclear energy facilities like they let us do back in the day either. :wink:

You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way. - Homer Simpson

JohnGaunt
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:10 pm

MichaelC wrote:Not exactly a cold-blooded murder followed by a confession, but Varg Vikernes, in 1994, was found guilty of murdering Ã˜ystein Aarseth as well as burning down four churches in Norway.

Varg and Anders do not have much in common. For example, Varg is someone who wants the original pagan religions to be restored to Norway; for Varg, Christianity is an invader religion. Varg and Anders may have some troubling social and political views, but even those are subtly different.

MichaelC
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:07 pm

JohnGaunt wrote:Varg and Anders do not have much in common. For example, Varg is someone who wants the original pagan religions to be restored to Norway; for Varg, Christianity is an invader religion. Varg and Anders may have some troubling social and political views, but even those are subtly different.

I wasn't claiming they had anything at all in common, just offering an example up for Badmike's musings.

Kingofpain89
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:05 pm

Interesting bit of reading for those who are enjoying the NFL lockout.

Starts here with a 'tweet' by punter Chris Kluwe:
http://twitter.com/#!/ChrisWarcraft/sta ... 1627642880

Continues here:
http://deadspin.com/5823549/dear-chris- ... it-we-wont

And still continues here:
http://deadspin.com/5823788/chris-kluwe ... -yes-i-can

You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way. - Homer Simpson

Badmike
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:00 pm

FormCritic wrote:
That has to be the coolest scout camp ever.

I have to agree. That's kick ass. I'd rather my grandson go to a summer of that than sitting on his ass playing video games that mimmick the same behaviors.

Mike B.

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Badmike
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:15 pm

SimperingToad wrote:
Compare this with the 4 hours the police waited in Columbine. Those photo ops are *ahem* murder.

In Columbine, the difference is the cops were on site; they were just too stupid (and too rooted in "traditional" hostage negotiation mode, without realizing no one was taking any hostages) to do anything. This would never happen again and indeed most first responders are "going in" rather than setting up and waiting the shooter out. And, add to the fact that an armed security guard who was actually in the cafeteria when the boys started shooting up the place RAN AWAY rather than exchange fire (BTW, why didn't this guy get his ass reamed more in the press? He should have been crucified.) Anyway, the point being Norwegian forces were worefully unprepared for terrorist activities of any sort, possibly lulled into complacency by the fact they have not faced this sort of violence before.

I'm still not sure why a news helicopter was flying around when it could have landed on shore and took a few armed cops to the island instead of getting footage of the shooter.

By contrast, there is the Texas Tower. I caught a lengthy interview several years ago with one of the guys who nailed the perp. Two cops go in to get him. Two. He credited the armed locals who kept the shooter pinned down for giving them the opportunity.

Wow, I was actually going to bring this up but never got around to it. The locals who pulled out deer rifles from their trucks and storerooms and began winging shots at Whitman are credited with saving lives and allowing wounded to be evacuated (Whitman at that point was having to dodge bullets instead of having unrestricted access to free shots on citizens) as well as letting McCoy and Martinez sneak up and blow him away by distracting him. (Interestingly, the cops afterwards were GRATEFUL to the better armed citizens for helping them do their job...)

Mike B.

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Chucho68
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:58 pm

TheHistorian wrote:
Gaming stores in the immediate area are Pandemonium (which you appear to have found), Compleat Strategist (barely worth the effort), and Hobby Bunker (pretty interesting). All are quite close to subway stops.

Thanks.

Hector.

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FormCritic
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:18 pm

Remember that in the Columbine incident the attackers' main plan involved bombs. There were bombs going off around the school. The murderers took shelter in the library, where they knew there were no bombs. They were waiting for an especially large and well-placed bomb to detonate a natural gas tank in the kitchen area and destroy much of the school. That bomb did not go off.

Police were unclear on which students had guns and what was happening in the hallways. THey thought they were responding to an ongoing bombing incident.

That said, the police failed miserably in the Columbine case because:

1) The murderers made a website to boast about what they were going to do.

2) The murderers made a video at school boasting about what they were going to do.

3) The murderers boasted to other students about what they were going to do.

4) Another student's father told the police in advance what the murderers were going to do. He urged them to look at the website.

5) When the police proved unable to access the murderers' website, the other student's father printed out a hardcopy of the website and brought it to the police.

The cops in Columbine did nothing with this information.

Along with parents who did not notice a bomb-making operation in their homes, the Columbine police were hugely to blame for failing to take action before the tragedy.

The Columbine killers could have been stopped with such devastating interrogation questions as:

"What did you do all weekend?"

Or

"Hey, your website says you are making bombs to murder everyone at school. What's with that?"

One interesting side note about Columbine: The murders were originally blamed on kids who played wargames and D&D at Columbine. Other students were unable to distinguish between the killers and the goth/gamers. The "Trenchcoat Mafia" that the media siezed upon was actually the local community of gamers at Columbine High School. In reality, the killers were too wierd and anti-social to fit in with the gamers, and no one in the so-called "Trenchcoat Mafia" had anything to do with the killings.

Don't know why I needed to tell you that. Oh well.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

Badmike
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:32 pm

FormCritic wrote:
One interesting side note about Columbine: The murders were originally blamed on kids who played wargames and D&D at Columbine. Other students were unable to distinguish between the killers and the goth/gamers. The "Trenchcoat Mafia" that the media siezed upon was actually the local community of gamers at Columbine High School. In reality, the killers were too wierd and anti-social to fit in with the gamers, and no one in the so-called "Trenchcoat Mafia" had anything to do with the killings.

The mainstream media sensationalized something and got it completely wrong? Shocked, shocked I say :roll:

Mike B.

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