Experts needed: for pre-1990 Dungeons & Dragons Content • Page 2 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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Experts needed: for pre-1990 Dungeons & Dragons Content
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Tharizdun
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:33 am

Earlier in this topic someone had said "the collecting community" might not be that large, actually it is

What is "large" though? Comparatively, nearly everyone has played boardgames and in almost any household you will find some boardgames. BGG represents an extremely minor number of those gamers. Less than 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% ... ... ... ... of everyone who plays boardgames I'd imagine. Now, RPG games are certainly nowhere in the same ballpark and likewise I'd imagine the same # of roleplayers will use the site (comparatively to BGG) and assuming that all the diehards already have RPG sites that are fairly well established I'm unsure if there's a critical mass that exists for RPGG to be a success. It will or will not regardless of what information exists there is what I was saying. That crowd of people (if there is one) will show up or it wont. I'm doubtful unfortunately

Ask me about my new M16!

HermitFromPluto
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:04 am

Hi wavemotion,

Nice of you to post here outlining your project.

Many of the members here have been involved in RPG database projects for many years. I notice you approach the Acaeum saying 'can you help us with D&D', but the Acaeum's non-TSR forums forms an extensive body of knowledge on all aspects of RPG collecting across all genres.

Probably the most advanced of the RPG research forums is the Tome of Treasures. We also have an Acaeum Wiki, which has been going for a year and a half. There is of course rpg.net and pen and paper. And many individuals here maintain their own websites on non-TSR items or fanzines.

There are many former and current RPG industry members here and much of the RPG research carried out here and at the Tome has been supported by many involved in the original design of the games.

The point being how can we drop our work and passion for the hobby which has manifested through this site, the Tome and the many individual sites over so many years and jump over and join you. Do you want us to do the work again, to give all our work to what seems to me to be a commercial site for free?

I don't mean to be cynical or critical. Just trying to convey to you how many here including myself will react. I have always appreciated boardgamegeek, great site for basic info on board games, but you should acknowledge or at least be aware that there are a number of sites already doing what you propose.

Badmike
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:10 am

Dave sounds like a very sincere guy, and it appears he's trying.

Unfortunately the entire setup of RPGG is somewhat flawed....a "pay for play" model that rewards prolific posters with "Geek Gold"...whether the posts are right or wrong. A lot of this was of the cut and paste variety. As a result there are tons of incorrect listings. However, as long as a gigantic number was reached (witness the continued refereral to 14,500 listings) it was ok. I imagine the huge number was a big draw to get advertisers to pay you guys for your site (not a rip, just a fact, BGG and this exist to make money).

I did log on and corrected a few entries, and posted a few scans. However, the mountain of incorrect listings is daunting, and it could literally take 4-5 hours a day for weeks just to get a handle on it and correct most of the wrongness there. Unfortunately most of us here don't have time to invest that sort of fact checking to the site. Unlike the sponsors of the site we aren't getting paid to correct lousy content.

Most of the guys posting here won't be very interested in the extracuricular stuff. A lot of the lists, forums, personalities etc are idiotic ("U1 is the roxxors, course I never played the original, talking about the 4E version") and I don't think the atmosphere would appeal to a lot of us on this forum. Frankly this is the "Get off my lawn you young punks" crowd for the most part, I doubt much of that stuff would appeal to us.

I do thank someone for finally coming here and asking for help from the Acaeum, I suggested this should have been one of the initial things you guys should have done. No where is there such an active and involved group of pure collectors, willing to argue minutia until the right answer is there. I think some of the guys here (which include many of the top D&D collectors in the world) could have headed off a few problems at the start.

I do think you guys are off to a good start. It would be pretty to think of an online database with ALL RPGs from the last few decades listed. At this rate though it will be several years just to comb through all the incorrect tidbits already in place. But I do wish you guys luck and if I only had more time I would probably get more involved, this seems like the sort of endeavor I would have really enjoyed many years ago when I had more time to devote to volunteer work.

Your attitude helps a lot and hopefully you'll get a few guys here to take a look and correct some of the bigger mistakes. I just remain very skeptical and cynical of this endeavor due to the motives involved.

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

Badmike
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:25 am

easilyentertained wrote:
Earlier in this topic someone had said "the collecting community" might not be that large, actually it is. And most of you know that. The fact that the Acaeum has only 1500 or so probably speaks to the carping attitude that characterizes so many of it's members. Not that there aren't that many old school D&D collectors. Most people don't want to open themselves up to the belligerence and paranoia.

I'd felt signing up and commenting was appropriate, I've used this sight for quite some time and find many aspects wonderful. But this bewildering troll attitude is a bit much, major league turn off.

I think one of the reasons the Acaeum only has that amount of members has nothing to do with our "carping attitude" (frankly, if you expected anything else out of a bunch of middle-aged old school collectors you were fooling yourself). This isn't just another collector's site....it is THE collector's site for Dungeons and Dragons. Most of the guys on here don't suffer fools lightly,and let it be known that bullshit walks. It may seem a little harsh at times, but it eliminates a lot of the flotsam right off the top (notice the lack of neighborhood ninnies here...Foul runs a tight ship).

Check out Dragonsfoot (a good site, but flawed) for evidence of what happens when you let certain inmates have keys to the asylum...it gets ridiculous.

Saying all this, I think the antipathy towards Dave and the RPG games site has more to do with method and motive. I think it would have been smart business before this thing even started to extend a hand to the good folks at the Acaeum and bring them on board before the site even started. I'm sure some of the guys here could have made some great suggestions about how to avoid a lot of the problems I now see on the site. On the few occasions I go there, I am so overwhelmed bythe mistakes I really can't count on using the site as any sort of reference. I understand it is for the "casual" collector rather than the die-hard grognard, so maybe we are just not the target audience here.

I also have problems with the motives for starting the site, which are purely commercial. I know, call me a cynic, but I think getting up as many entries as possible as quickly as possible, damn the accuracy, was more to attract advertisers than serve as a trusted database. Again, it seems overly sensitive, but you are talking about guys that split hairs about editions based on the tiniest of details.

Despite all this Dave hasn't even faced the S-storm I figured he would when a member of RPG Geek finally got around to posting here. Dave also seems to be handling it well which is a good point in his favor.

I hope you aren't just trolling ("easilyentertained" is a pretty, uh, evocative name). Most of us old trolls here are just used to people getting things right, no matter how much time it takes, so obviously a site like RPG Geek is going to annoy a lot of us. It's going to take a lot of time for most of us to warm up to him, or the site.

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

Johnson
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:27 am

Hi,

how many sites are there that give a good catalog of D&D?

Here, collectors trove, brenfrow etc etc

Its very hard to get excited about it all again. :roll:

There was a thread devoted to rpggeek a while back. Maybe he should have tagged onto the back of that.

I'm sure he'll get plenty of help tho.

Cheers,
Malc

I have a plan so cunning, you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel.

JasonZavoda
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:53 am

Badmike wrote:
I think one of the reasons the Acaeum only has that amount of members has nothing to do with our "carping attitude" (frankly, if you expected anything else out of a bunch of middle-aged old school collectors you were fooling yourself). This isn't just another collector's site....it is THE collector's site for Dungeons and Dragons. Most of the guys on here don't suffer fools lightly,and let it be known that bullshit walks. It may seem a little harsh at times, but it eliminates a lot of the flotsam right off the top (notice the lack of neighborhood ninnies here...Foul runs a tight ship).

Check out Dragonsfoot (a good site, but flawed) for evidence of what happens when you let certain inmates have keys to the asylum...it gets ridiculous.

Saying all this, I think the antipathy towards Dave and the RPG games site has more to do with method and motive. I think it would have been smart business before this thing even started to extend a hand to the good folks at the Acaeum and bring them on board before the site even started. I'm sure some of the guys here could have made some great suggestions about how to avoid a lot of the problems I now see on the site. On the few occasions I go there, I am so overwhelmed bythe mistakes I really can't count on using the site as any sort of reference. I understand it is for the "casual" collector rather than the die-hard grognard, so maybe we are just not the target audience here.

I also have problems with the motives for starting the site, which are purely commercial. I know, call me a cynic, but I think getting up as many entries as possible as quickly as possible, damn the accuracy, was more to attract advertisers than serve as a trusted database. Again, it seems overly sensitive, but you are talking about guys that split hairs about editions based on the tiniest of details.

Despite all this Dave hasn't even faced the S-storm I figured he would when a member of RPG Geek finally got around to posting here. Dave also seems to be handling it well which is a good point in his favor.

I hope you aren't just trolling ("easilyentertained" is a pretty, uh, evocative name). Most of us old trolls here are just used to people getting things right, no matter how much time it takes, so obviously a site like RPG Geek is going to annoy a lot of us. It's going to take a lot of time for most of us to warm up to him, or the site.

Mike B.

Mike,

If you encourage these puppies they are only going to follow you home and want to be fed and end up peeing on your carpet. Right now they have a big pile of poo (14,500 piles and counting) and no one to smack them on the nose with a rolled up paper.

The mind set that everyone has a right to their own brand of poo "to each his own" and the desire for ever increasing quantities of the stuff does not bode well for such a project (unless, of course, someone happens to like poo, then this project is perfect and they can just roll in it to their hearts content).

As for mindnumbingly vast collections of game reviews doesn't that already exist on enworld or rpgnet or some such?

Maybe these guys can pull their poo togther and construct the biggest bestest RPGreview site on the internet, but I'm not holding my breath, at least not here on the Acaeum where the poo is kept to a minimum.

wavemotion
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:37 am

bbarsh wrote:This site, and its denizens (me included), take pride in exacting detail of our collections.

That's coming through loud and clear - and makes me think I've definitely come to the right place! I would personally appreciate any help you can provide given the understandable constraints of time.

As an aside: on the boardgame domain of the 'Geek we call such people, lovingly, curmudgeons

badmike: I emailed Scott (webmaster@acaeum.com) back on July 18th to express my congratulations for this well run site and to give some details of the (at that time) yet to be launched RPG Geek (we were in the open beta then). I specifically mentioned a strong desire to have Acaeum members on board for the project. I got back a very cordial but curt response which talked about the Acaeum taking plagiarism seriously (which I agree with). I thought perhaps appealing to people in forum would be the next best approach - and when I visited the forum that day there was quite a thread raging about the "nitwits" (aka me!) at RPG Geek. At that time I had a punch-list of issues and problems and concerns that was piling up and since pre-1990 D&D was to represent about less than 1/10th of 1% of our total database and discussion, I decided that this might not be the best time to push the issue. I put the Acaeum on the bottom of my punch-list and we went off to enlist the help of Steve Jackson and the GURPS crew, Steve Long and the Hero crew, etc. On December 16, 2009 the Acaeum returned to the top of my punch list.

I continue to appreciate the well meaning feedback.

-Dave

TheHistorian
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:48 am

I get the sense that RPGG's goals differ from ours, and that's really the only "problem".

Say a person is wondering about a module they remember. A site like RPGG, rpg.net, DF, etc. may help them figure out what it is and then they can go find a copy. Very useful. (I've done that twice at the companion site boardgamegeek, and been thrilled to be able to finally recall a couple games that had been eluding my memory for years.)

Acaeum, ToT, brenfrow, etc. go to the next level, trying to tell you about every version and printing and differences thereof for that module. Extremely useful, but to a much smaller audience.

It's the difference between looking for a copy of Moby-Dick at your local book store and wanting to know what the original first edition looks like.

So I'm not sure that there is anything wrong with what they're trying to do; it just doesn't seem to meet the needs of the folks who hang out here. Maybe it will someday, maybe not. I wish them well, even if I remain skeptical.

(BTW, it's friggin' gorgeous - just saw this copy at an antiquarian book fair a few weeks ago - http://tinyurl.com/ycf26vf - when the guy said I could take it out of the case and check it out, I couldn't stop myself from laughing)

Prufrock
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:53 am

Hi Dave,

I hope that you are able to build the database you want to. I, also, wish I had the expertise you're looking for. Unfortunately I do not. The folks here just tolerate me.

martin

Badmike
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:08 am

wavemotion wrote:That's coming through loud and clear - and makes me think I've definitely come to the right place! I would personally appreciate any help you can provide given the understandable constraints of time.

As an aside: on the boardgame domain of the 'Geek we call such people, lovingly, curmudgeons

badmike: I emailed Scott (webmaster@acaeum.com) back on July 18th to express my congratulations for this well run site and to give some details of the (at that time) yet to be launched RPG Geek (we were in the open beta then). I specifically mentioned a strong desire to have Acaeum members on board for the project. I got back a very cordial but curt response which talked about the Acaeum taking plagiarism seriously (which I agree with). I thought perhaps appealing to people in forum would be the next best approach - and when I visited the forum that day there was quite a thread raging about the "nitwits" (aka me!) at RPG Geek. At that time I had a punch-list of issues and problems and concerns that was piling up and since pre-1990 D&D was to represent about less than 1/10th of 1% of our total database and discussion, I decided that this might not be the best time to push the issue. I put the Acaeum on the bottom of my punch-list and we went off to enlist the help of Steve Jackson and the GURPS crew, Steve Long and the Hero crew, etc. On December 16, 2009 the Acaeum returned to the top of my punch list.

I continue to appreciate the well meaning feedback.

-Dave

Scott's misgivings were well thought out....I saw verbatim "cut and pastes" of certain rares of Acaeum desriptions on the site (probably still there, who knows). I was probably one of the people raging against the nitwits. The entire project put a bad taste in my mouth, not to mention the sort of quotes I saw coming from the crew over there at the time.
I thiink you'll eventually get the changes you want, but since not a lot of people here are starry eyed over the lure of Geek Gold, it will probably be a long process. I maybe get over there every couple months, and I try to correct a couple things when I get there. Once again thanks for your reasonable demeanor and I hope you get the sort of help you are looking for...

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

wavemotion
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:18 am

Badmike wrote:Scott's misgivings were well thought out....I saw verbatim "cut and pastes" of certain rares of Acaeum desriptions on the site (probably still there, who knows).

That's unfortunate, Mike. I'd love to know which items - it's not tolerable to the RPG Geek crew either. We track uploaders and content submitters as part of an audit trail so I can easily find out who did it. Our rules for descriptions are that we want:

1. From the Back of the Book:
2. Publisher Blurb:
3. From the Introduction:
or
4: User Summary:

In that preference order. We ask that every description be attributed. If someone cut and paste from the Acaeum and attributed it to "User Summary:" I'd like to ensure that the person is not allowed to enter data into our database again (and I have that authority). Our goal is to have sterile "back of the book" type information for the description - without opinion, conjecture or links to external websites.

Many of the images here on the Acaeum are below our minimum resolution threshold so those should be rejected as a matter of course. We ask that all users take scans of their materials for uploading to the 'Geek (many of the images currently up for AD&D and basic D&D are from myself, Eric, Chris and two others - and we have all been scanning our collections in the same DPI range).

-Dave

wavemotion
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:42 pm

Badmike wrote:I just remain very skeptical and cynical of this endeavor due to the motives involved.

I'm unlikely to convince you, but the entire RPG Admin crew is volunteer. We get nothing in compensation for the thousands of hours we've put into this effort. We have also largely decided to take no geekgold for our contributions. I recently donated $100 to the December fund drive to support the site in addition to my day to day efforts. None of the 35 members of the RPG Geek consortium are paid or compensated in any way (well, not quite true... Aldie reads and keeps up to date with the list but allows the passionate volunteer crew to do their thing). I wrote (and refined ad nauseum) the Guide to Data Entry and the User Guide simply because I believed in the site and the goals we've set before us. The guy that compiled the glossary took nothing for his effort. The guy that wrote the FAQ took nothing for his efforts. The guy that wrote the BGG iPhone App (to track collections and stream reviews/data live) took nothing (and the app is free).

For years Aldie and Derk paid out of their own pockets to keep the site running. Many thousands of dollars were spent year after year to keep the servers up to date and the site up so we could have a go-to place for boardgames. Things have been better for them in recent years - they have been able to hire a third full-time developer and will be hiring out for a full UI redesign in 2010. I think it's great they have been able to turn their love of the hobby into a living and create new jobs.

I feel badly that our passion and commitment in this new RPG site endeavor has come off as "bad motive". I'll see what I can do to correct that perception in 2010.

-Dave

Badmike
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:17 pm

wavemotion wrote:I'm unlikely to convince you, but the entire RPG Admin crew is volunteer. We get nothing in compensation for the thousands of hours we've put into this effort. We have also largely decided to take no geekgold for our contributions. I recently donated $100 to the December fund drive to support the site in addition to my day to day efforts. None of the 35 members of the RPG Geek consortium are paid or compensated in any way (well, not quite true... Aldie reads and keeps up to date with the list but allows the passionate volunteer crew to do their thing). I wrote (and refined ad nauseum) the Guide to Data Entry and the User Guide simply because I believed in the site and the goals we've set before us. The guy that compiled the glossary took nothing for his effort. The guy that wrote the FAQ took nothing for his efforts. The guy that wrote the BGG iPhone App (to track collections and stream reviews/data live) took nothing (and the app is free).

For years Aldie and Derk paid out of their own pockets to keep the site running. Many thousands of dollars were spent year after year to keep the servers up to date and the site up so we could have a go-to place for boardgames. Things have been better for them in recent years - they have been able to hire a third full-time developer and will be hiring out for a full UI redesign in 2010. I think it's great they have been able to turn their love of the hobby into a living and create new jobs.

I feel badly that our passion and commitment in this new RPG site endeavor has come off as "bad motive". I'll see what I can do to correct that perception in 2010.

-Dave

I'll try to find the Acaeum cut and paste jobs if they haven't been taken down already...

I have nothing against making money from the hobby, I resell items and some old schoolers think that's the devil's work. Maybe it's just the weird and unseemly sight of grownups trampling over themselves to aquire "Geek Gold" that gives me the willies. Or the fact there appeared to be more focus on getting up items quickly instead of correctly. I can say through my own perspective with helping put on a mini-con that the NTRPG Con is run with no profit and lots of volunteer time, and it does take extraordinary effort. So I commend you guys on that front.

Good Luck with the site.

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

Theleb
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:37 pm

Best wishes with the site, Dave.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:03 pm

As I see it, the RPG Geek website is so full of incorrect and duplicated information that it's not woth trying to filter all the shit out or trying to hide the odd piece of truthful or useful information in the pile of poo.

Anyone needing D&D information that is for the most part well researched, truthful and accurate can find it on any number of alternative wesites, not least of which is Acaeum and Tome of Treasures.

Why anyone here would want to assist some money making website peddle their crap for profit, I have no idea. If members are so predisposed to contributing to the knowledgebase of our hobby, they would far better serve us all by contributing either here through the development or expansion of subwebs, of expanding the excellent and extensive work over on Tome of Treasures.

I realise RPG Geek has to peddle its wares and fish for contributions somewhere, but until your represented site starts filtering out shit and getting rid of members who peddle crap.

Does anyone ever check that your random membership tells the truth, or is it a Wikipedia type of 'just type any old shit and we'll deal with it by committee' type of affair. The first move you need to do is start vetting and controlling those who get to post on your site.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Plaag
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:17 pm

Well I don't see anything wrong from the glance at the Judges Guild portion. Course I'd probably have used the site to help my own had it been around years ago. I've no plans nor the capability at the moment to help out another site, and when I would I think I'd stick with the Acaeum Wiki.

Wish you luck though.

ShaneG.

I reject your reality and substitute my own

wavemotion
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:21 pm

Tharizdun wrote:BGG represents an extremely minor number of those gamers. Less than 1% of 1% of 1% of 1%

Agreed. Though it's not quite as small as you say. I have no idea how many boardgamers there are in the world - 100 million? Probably more. BGG gets 100,000 unique visitors per day and 1 million unique visitors per month. BGG has (as of several months ago) 281,000 registered users (nobody is required to register to get access to the full data set). If I had to guess, I'd say it's larger than your guess... maybe 1% of 1%.

RPG Geek is currently about 1% the traffic of BGG. But a few thousand new members in the first six months is at least a good sign and the trend is upwards. I'd be pretty stoked with 10,000 RPG Geek members by end of 2010.

I appreciate the Acaeum folks wishing us luck in this undertaking - both here publicly and privately. Of course I appreciate more the couple of rare brave souls who have offered some help! We could use additional help with this endeavor... please.

--
Dave Bernazzani
meeplemaster@gmail.com

JasonZavoda
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:20 pm

Badmike wrote:
I'll try to find the Acaeum cut and paste jobs if they haven't been taken down already...

I have nothing against making money from the hobby, I resell items and some old schoolers think that's the devil's work. Maybe it's just the weird and unseemly sight of grownups trampling over themselves to aquire "Geek Gold" that gives me the willies. Or the fact there appeared to be more focus on getting up items quickly instead of correctly. I can say through my own perspective with helping put on a mini-con that the NTRPG Con is run with no profit and lots of volunteer time, and it does take extraordinary effort. So I commend you guys on that front.

Good Luck with the site.

Mike B.

Well Mike now that you've fed him looks like we are stuck with him. I know that waggily little tail and puppy dog eyes suckered you in, but you guys better clean up after him and take him for walks.

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