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Research: Holmes 3rd Edition - THREE versions?
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Post Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:48 am 
 

3rd edition, 2nd printing: ISBN number on page 1 lower left; page 19 formatted as 2nd edition (combat matrix in middle of page); "USING THE DICE" on page 46 references dice (but no 10-sided die) and chits; product list on back cover identical to 2nd edition except that the prices are missing (reference: does not include B2 under "ADVENTURE MODULES FOR BASIC D&D").

[this is printing is in the right-hand pictures above]


The "USING THE DICE" text on page 46 of this printing appears to match exactly the text of the "USING THE DICE" stand-alone card that appears in some versions of the boxed set, attached to the chits and dice coupon. See Milford's clear scan of this card here at Tome of Treasures.


Last edited by Zenopus on Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:37 am 
 

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:42 pm 
 

I happened to get a Holmes Basic book in a lot I bought recently, and lo and behold it's one of these newly identified printings (3rd edition, tentative 2nd printing).

I compared it to the other 3rd edition book that I have (3rd edition, 3rd printing), and found two other minor differences:
(2nd edition also included here for reference)

pg 4, last entry in the TABLE OF CONTENTS
2nd: "USING THE DICE"
3rd, 2nd: "USING THE DICE OR CHITS"
3rd, 3rd: "USING THE DICE"

pg 5, last sentence of INTRODUCTION
2nd: "by rolling special polyhedral 20-sided dice which come with this game."
3rd, 2nd: "by rolling special polyhedral dice, or drawing chits included with this game."
3rd, 3rd: "by rolling special polyhedral dice included with this game".

I still think the tentative 3rd, 2nd is the earlier printing for the reasons I wrote above.

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:50 pm 
 

Just realized there's at least two printings of the 2nd edition as well...

http://tomeoftreasures.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=16885

The thread above shows a 2nd edition (November 1978) with a product list on the back page showing a price of $4.49 for B1 (this was scanned by TheMilford). The copy I have shows a price of $5.49 for B1. Otherwise the two product lists appear identical.

So, now we have:
1st edition, 1st print: code F116-R, Lizard Logo
1st edition, 2nd print: code 2001, Lizard Logo, January 1978
1st edition, 3rd print: code 2001, Lizard Logo, May 1978
2nd edition, 1st print: code 2001, Wizard Logo, November 1978, back cover B1 price $4.49
2nd edition, 2nd print: code 2001, Wizard Logo, November 1978, back cover B1 price $5.49
3rd edition, 1st print: code 2001, Wizard Logo, December 1979, no ISBN on page 1
3rd edition, 2nd print: code 2001, Wizard Logo, December 1979, ISBN on page 1, "USING THE DICE OR CHITS" on page 46
3rd edition, 3rd print: code 2001, Wizard Logo, December 1979, ISBN on page 1, "USING THE DICE" on page 46
Silver Anniversary reprint


Last edited by Zenopus on Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:33 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:Also, more specifically and historically relevant is that the AD&D items have been removed from the final version of the product list to further separate the D&D/AD&D families... as by 1979 they were in full swing with. (I'm assuming the 3rd print came a bit later than the "December 1979" title page date.)

I can confirm the book on the right is older.  I haven't been following this thread that closely, so I hope this doesn't throw a wrench in things.

On the catalog page the text "Send $2.00 for our free catalog" is older than "Send for our free catalog".  This is known from an identical change in other books, most notably the AD&D MM (3rd+ vs. 4th).

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:58 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:I can confirm the book on the right is older.  I haven't been following this thread that closely, so I hope this doesn't throw a wrench in things.

On the catalog page the text "Send $2.00 for our free catalog" is older than "Send for our free catalog".  This is known from an identical change in other books, most notably the AD&D MM (3rd+ vs. 4th).


Thanks for the confirmation. That is consistent with what I wrote above, so no wrench. The older one on the right is the "3rd edition, 2nd printing", and the later one on the left is the the "3rd edition, 3rd printing".

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:28 pm 
 

*bump*

Acaeum member Lurker Below alerted me to a new print variant of the Holmes Basic rulebook. See this blog post for pictures.

These are all of the printings of the rulebook that I am now aware of, with the new one in bold:

1st edition, 1st print: code F116-R, Lizard Logo
1st edition, 2nd print: code 2001, Lizard Logo, January 1978
1st edition, 3rd print: code 2001, Lizard Logo, May 1978
2nd edition, 1st print: code 2001, Wizard Logo, November 1978, back cover B1 price $4.49
2nd edition, 2nd print: code 2001, Wizard Logo, November 1978, back cover B1 price $5.49
2nd edition, 3rd print: code 2001, Wizard Logo, November 1978, no prices on back cover
3rd edition, 1st print: code 2001, Wizard Logo, December 1979, no ISBN on page 1
3rd edition, 2nd print: code 2001, Wizard Logo, December 1979, ISBN on page 1, "USING THE DICE OR CHITS" on page 46
3rd edition, 3rd print: code 2001, Wizard Logo, December 1979, ISBN on page 1, "USING THE DICE" on page 46
Silver Anniversary reprint, 1999


Zenopus Archives website & blog: Exploring the Underworld of Holmes Basic D&D. Holmes Ref: Reference Sheets for Holmes Basic Referees, also compatible with OD&D plus the Greyhawk supplement

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:02 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote in Research: Holmes 3rd Edition - THREE versions?:Also, more specifically and historically relevant is that the AD&D items have been removed from the final version of the product list to further separate the D&D/AD&D families... as by 1979 they were in full swing with.


I believe this to be a big deal, as before the DMG, AD&D did not exist as an independent rules system. You needed Holmes or OD&D or a third-party product, because AD&D was in its golden age a kind of supplement. To play the game on its own, you'd have to buy the DMG after summer '79 (probably months afterward to find it in retail shops), read & digest the rules, then port them into an actual game with other people. By this time, the '70s are likely over. AD&D is thus an entity of the '80s. Unless of course you define the decade as starting at 1981.

TheMilford wrote in Research: Holmes 3rd Edition - THREE versions?:...Why do I have 7 copies of Holmes?


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:35 pm 
 

2nd edition, 3rd print Holmes Basic rulebook would probably be after the 3rd & 4th print PHB were out (so 6+/1979) as they still had prices in them.

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Post Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:13 pm 
 

Plaag wrote in Research: Holmes 3rd Edition - THREE versions?:2nd edition, 3rd print Holmes Basic rulebook would probably be after the 3rd & 4th print PHB were out (so 6+/1979) as they still had prices in them.

ShaneG.


Funny thing.  I was going through my stuff to find some things to copy for Zenopus, when I thought to look at my original copy of Holmes.  It is also a 2nd edition, 3rd printing (no prices).  I've had one all along.

It came in a boxed set with a mono B1 and the five dice.  I'll check, but I don't think the B1 has prices.  I threw the box away a long time ago.  I think that it corresponded to a fourth+ print.  I got it in 1979 (autumn perhaps) about the same time as Dallas Egbert disappeared.  There was also an article in Parade Magazine that I recall from the time.  I soon purchased a PHB 5th print.  My DMG (6th beta) and MM (4th beta) came early the next year.

There was another one on eBay right after the one Zenopus mentioned, but I cannot find it now.  It was pricy and in poor condition.  They are probably so common that I never took notice.

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Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:03 am 
 

Plaag wrote in Research: Holmes 3rd Edition - THREE versions?:2nd edition, 3rd print Holmes Basic rulebook would probably be after the 3rd & 4th print PHB were out (so 6+/1979) as they still had prices in them.


Thanks for that info - it fits well with the timeline.

Lurker Below wrote in Research: Holmes 3rd Edition - THREE versions?:Funny thing.  I was going through my stuff to find some things to copy for Zenopus, when I thought to look at my original copy of Holmes.  It is also a 2nd edition, 3rd printing (no prices).  I've had one all along.


:D  

Two folks on G+ told me that their 2nd edition is also of this same print, so I imagine it's actually fairly common, just never distinguished before. The Acaeum only tracks the boxed set so the rulebook printings have only been hashed out here in piecemeal. I just have one 2nd edition, with prices, so I rely on others to notice any discrepancies in copies they have versus my list.


Zenopus Archives website & blog: Exploring the Underworld of Holmes Basic D&D. Holmes Ref: Reference Sheets for Holmes Basic Referees, also compatible with OD&D plus the Greyhawk supplement

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Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:18 am 
 

Zenopus wrote in Research: Holmes 3rd Edition - THREE versions?:
Plaag wrote in Research: Holmes 3rd Edition - THREE versions?:2nd edition, 3rd print Holmes Basic rulebook would probably be after the 3rd & 4th print PHB were out (so 6+/1979) as they still had prices in them.


Thanks for that info - it fits well with the timeline.

Saved me from having to add a comment; thanks, Shane. :)
"6+" is still safer than making that "June-ish" as the removal of prices from the stock list was very late for the OD&D supplements ("after" the last stated prints in November). I don't think we'd pinned down anything more specific for the 6th/7th OCEs, either, as that would probably require store receipts.


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Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:42 pm 
 

Lurker Below wrote in Research: Holmes 3rd Edition - THREE versions?:It came in a boxed set with a mono B1 and the five dice.  I'll check, but I don't think the B1 has prices.  I threw the box away a long time ago.  I think that it corresponded to a fourth+ print.  I got it in 1979 (autumn perhaps) about the same time as Dallas Egbert disappeared.  There was also an article in Parade Magazine that I recall from the time.  I soon purchased a PHB 5th print.  My DMG (6th beta) and MM (4th beta) came early the next year.


Upon further reflection, I may have received the Basic Set (4th+, with Holmes 2nd edition, 3rd print) for my birthday in March, 1980.  It's difficult to remember the details.  So the date range for that printing is between fall 79 to winter 79/80.  My PHB (5th), DMG (6th beta) and MM (4th beta) did follow in that order.

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