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D&D/AD&D Retro clones - Why?
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SimperingToad
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Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:39 am

A quick look at Amazon under 'player's handbook' reveals 16 copies (both covers) of 1E books going for $39.99 and up. EBay is hit or miss (at least you can see what you are buying most of the time). But, outside of those who already play the game, how many people, especially those new to it, want a ratty copy of a book with writing, stickers, and who knows what else even if they can find it for $5-8? And there is usually a 7-day waiting period (not including shipping time).

I have one FLGS within a half hour drive from me. They do not sell pre-4E stuff with the exception of Pathfinder and such. They have less than half the shelf space they did 2-3 years ago dedicated to RPGs.

I have one used book store within a half hour drive which would sell the books, but in the year or so since I have discovered them, the earliest material has been 2E, and they have so little material that it takes up about half a shelf at the best.

And I live on the edge of a major city!

So much for universal availability of 'new' AD&D material. WotC certainly isn't producing any. Old used books are a hard sell to anyone new to the game. Who wants a World Atlas from 1940 when there is a brand new one? Even if it is half the price of the new?

You should read some of the boards for the new stuff (if you don't already). "it isn't balanced; it's too hard; the artwork sucks; I needed a dictionary to read the rules; descending AC isn't intuitive; there's so many tables; etc.". You're not going to sell AD&D to this mentality without pulling out a few hairs. And there's a whoooole lot of this mentality about.

Retro has the potential to keep interest in 'AD&D' or 'OD&D' brand RPGing alive and kicking, and not die off with the 'RPG boomers'. There is actual 'new' stuff being made, as opposed to WotC's habit of 'updating' old material to lure the unsuspecting to the new game pretending it's the same all along. Don't go into the light!!! :shaking2:

deimos3428
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Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:20 pm

JasonZavoda wrote:AD&D is an excellent system developed by some incredible people. I object to loudmouth jerks who stand on the shoulders of giants and claim that they now tower above these great men. Whether these people are on this site or any other site doesn't matter.

Everything you've said thus far has been noted countless times, and I can't really disagree. You'll always meet the same two counter-arguments:

1. "Clones are cheaper".

Sure, some PDFs are free. That's great until you realize that PDFs are completely useless as a reference during play. Printing it out at home or via an online service will never be as handy as a proper hardcover this purpose, and as soon as you do that there goes any cost savings. Plus, not all clones are free. Compare the price and quality of a 1E orange spine vs. a C&C book.

2. "You can legally write adventures for clones, but not 1E".

Not true. You can and always could do so. The only area of conflict is trademark law, and using another company's trademark, even without permission, is not illegal if properly disclaimed. The makers of clones generally prefer to avoid the matter entirely and agree to the terms of the OGL, but that's a choice based on a fear of litigation rather than law itself.

However, I'm most interested in who or what set you off. (In general, it's the overly enthusiastic fans of such games that are "loudmouth jerks", not the creators of the works themselves. Best to just ignore 'em.)

TheHistorian
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Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:51 pm

deimos3428 wrote:(In general, it's the overly enthusiastic fans of such games that are "loudmouth jerks", not the creators of the works themselves. Best to just ignore 'em.)

I've been bumming around on the Internet for about twenty years. I've rarely seen that (correct) advice convince anyone.

deimos3428
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Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:02 pm

Thats ok, I don't listen to myself either. But I'm learnin'.

For the record, I did a rather trivial bit of searching for the 1E PHB. They are very common so long as you don't get eBay tunnel vision.
Google "ISBN 9780880381048" and you'll find a few dozen under $10 USD shipped. Of course they are in varying condition but you can inquire about that before purchase without worry of being sniped, and odds are good you can combine shipping on a few other hardcovers.

mordrin
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Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:12 pm

deimos3428 wrote:For the record, I did a rather trivial bit of searching for the 1E PHB. They are very common so long as you don't get eBay tunnel vision.
Google "ISBN 9780880381048" and you'll find a few dozen under $10 USD shipped. Of course they are in varying condition but you can inquire about that before purchase without worry of being sniped, and odds are good you can combine shipping on a few other hardcovers.

I've been feeling lately that often common items are going for 1.5-2 times what they used/ought to.
Getting a suspicion that a lot of ex-players are coming back, want what they remember, don't want to wait, and higher prices (than we're used to) seem reasonable to them when new modules run ~15-20 and new hardbacks ~40. And so a higher proportion of 'noob prices' on common items.

Guy Fullerton
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Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:40 pm

mordrin wrote:I've been feeling lately that often common items are going for 1.5-2 times what they used/ought to.
Getting a suspicion that a lot of ex-players are coming back

I get that feeling too, but I haven't been collecting AD&D stuff long enough to really know, you know?

Guy Fullerton
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Badmike
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:11 am

Guy Fullerton wrote:I get that feeling too, but I haven't been collecting AD&D stuff long enough to really know, you know?

When ebay was in the early going (late 90s), it was wasn't unusual to see commons stuff like B1, N1 or U1 regularly sell in the $15-$25 range in auctions. My craziest sale along this time was a copy of N1 for about $50 because of two determined bidders!

As the years rolled on and more sellers got onto Ebay, prices dipped dramatically. For while in the mid 00's, common modules were as easy to find as bank failures and prices dipped under $10 for most of the common (and some uncommon) modules. It wasn't unusual to see 15-20 copies of each common module in stores and at auction at any one time; this also included "hard to find" items like T1-4.

In the last couple of years since Ebay's "purge" of the site with their massive changes, sellers have left in droves, which has lowered the amount of these items for sale, resulting in slightly higher prices. I often find when listing a copy of a module I consider common that there may few if any other dealers also listing the item, which would have been unheard of in year's past.

I think renewed interest coupled with waning availability is leading to slightly higher prices on 1E stuff.

Mike B.

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Blackmoor
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:38 am

Badmike wrote:
When ebay was in the early going (late 90s), it was wasn't unusual to see commons stuff like B1, N1 or U1 regularly sell in the $15-$25 range in auctions. My craziest sale along this time was a copy of N1 for about $50 because of two determined bidders!

As the years rolled on and more sellers got onto Ebay, prices dipped dramatically. For while in the mid 00's, common modules were as easy to find as bank failures and prices dipped under $10 for most of the common (and some uncommon) modules. It wasn't unusual to see 15-20 copies of each common module in stores and at auction at any one time; this also included "hard to find" items like T1-4.

In the last couple of years since Ebay's "purge" of the site with their massive changes, sellers have left in droves, which has lowered the amount of these items for sale, resulting in slightly higher prices. I often find when listing a copy of a module I consider common that there may few if any other dealers also listing the item, which would have been unheard of in year's past.

I think renewed interest coupled with waning availability is leading to slightly higher prices on 1E stuff.

Mike B.

Yes I remember paying $50.00 for a FR Cormyr sup :oops:

But also getting $125+ for the Bloodwar boxset

back then

Games can get you through times of no money but money can not get you through times of no games!!

ashmire13
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:11 pm

This is all rather new to me :oops:

but having downloaded OSRIC to have a look through, it's interesting that you have to pay for the modules on NKG.

Is that due to the effort put in by the writers?

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FormCritic
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:52 pm

Haven't spent a lot of time on Dragonfoot.

Haven't spent a lot of time on any forum except this one, in fact.

In general I have noticed:

1) Fans of any edition tend to have snotty things to say about other editions. The internet tends to appeal to people who have snotty things to day.

2) Trolls like trollery. I've done it myself on occasion. Arguing with them encourages them.

3) Attitudes toward the edition wars have generally mellowed on this website over the past two years.

I have been giving serious consideration to a campaign with one of the retro clones. I have a couple of reasons:

1) I find the idea of a rules set in a single book to be attractive (and this is one reason why I have not tried Castles and Crusades.)

2) I find the artwork and (that strange word) feel of games like Swords and Wizardry to be suitably old-school cool.

3) I don't want to wreck (finish off) my AD&D books.

4) Here it comes - the AD&D rules were badly off track at the end of the 1st Edition era. People tend to forget what was happenging to the game when the second wave of hardback rules altered it forever.

5) I find the idea of getting into a new/old system to be more fun than trying to re-start AD&D. I think I would have an easier time firing up my game group to try a retro clone system.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

ashmire13
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:03 pm

I've also become rather interested in this the past day or so due to this thread.. In grabbing the OSRIC pdf it has been good fun having a read and the 'feel' is old school thats for sure.

Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

g026r
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:13 pm

deimos3428 wrote:That's great until you realize that PDFs are completely useless as a reference during play.

It depends on preference. I've known people who'd rather game with a laptop and PDF as opposed to physical books. If that's your thing then with a properly produced PDF it's the simplest type of reference available: one with which you can do a near-instantaneous full-text search.

"Reader, Carthegena was of the mind, that unto thoſe Three Things, which the Ancients held Impoſſible, there ſhould be added this Fourth ; To find a Book Printed without Errata's."

FormCritic
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:17 pm

Take the pdf to a local photocopy place and have several comb binding versions made...?

Haven't priced this. Possible?

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

bbarsh
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:43 pm

ashmire13 wrote:I've also become rather interested in this the past day or so due to this thread.. In grabbing the OSRIC pdf it has been good fun having a read and the 'feel' is old school thats for sure.

Crap that thing is 400 pages long...

And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

New modules for your Old School game http://pacesettergames.com/

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Artur
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:13 pm

deimos3428 wrote:Thats ok, I don't listen to myself either. But I'm learnin'.

For the record, I did a rather trivial bit of searching for the 1E PHB. They are very common so long as you don't get eBay tunnel vision.
Google "ISBN 9780880381048" and you'll find a few dozen under $10 USD shipped. Of course they are in varying condition but you can inquire about that before purchase without worry of being sniped, and odds are good you can combine shipping on a few other hardcovers.

Yeah, reading through this thread, I was thinking that either I'm extremely lucky or just looking at different buying venues.

I collect a lot of material, but focus on 1E AD&D DMG, PHB, MM, and D&DG. In the past year alone, I've purchased five near mint idol cover PHBs, and I've never paid more than $10 for any of them, shipped. I think the most I've ever paid for any of the 50+ copies I have of any of these books was $15 shipped. All but two of them are in good or better condition.

Like I said, maybe just lucky, but I do avoid e-bay like the plague.

Gnat the Beggar
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:38 pm

FormCritic wrote:Take the pdf to a local photocopy place and have several comb binding versions made...?

Haven't priced this. Possible?

Possible?
Yes.
Practical?
Not even close.

Try around 15-20 cents per page for the copies and binding them into a book is extra.
A few years ago, I priced binding a small booklet with only 50 pages.
It was a manual that I created for a specific set of technical instructions.
Printer wanted a Minimum of $15 per bound book if less than 100 pages.
I ended up ordering 50 copies as they were really needed for what I had to do back then.
That order cost was reduced by 10 Percent by the manager of the print shop since I ordered 50 copies.
Still, it was a lot of money for a small booklet.

More for thicker books no doubt.
A 400 page book would likely run at least $75 - $100 per book.

Perhaps someone else here has had a better experience than I did.

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Badmike
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:44 pm

g026r wrote:
It depends on preference. I've known people who'd rather game with a laptop and PDF as opposed to physical books. If that's your thing then with a properly produced PDF it's the simplest type of reference available: one with which you can do a near-instantaneous full-text search.

I DM with a laptop (sacrilege!!!). I've seen groups in different venues where all of the players have a laptop, on which are all the rulebooks of the system they are using. To top it off, if you game online (Skype based, for example) it can be a veritable boon to have the rulebooks on the same computer you are using for the game.

I had to switch to laptop based DMing simply because my piles of DM notes were getting out of hand (and if you talk to my currect players, it can still get pretty messy). Using the laptop allows me to reference several items at the same time, along with the Core Rules CD (which I also used for some of the dice rolling).

Mike B.

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copycat
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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:46 am

I do not claim to care to know why "clones" have become suddenly popular, but I would hesitate to classify some games in that department, such as Castles and Crusades (and the new one by Jason Vey) which is more a bridge than something else -- it most assuredly is not, at least to me, a copy of D&D in any form having its own underlying game system and reasons to exist. Certainly it has elements that are reminiscent of D&D, but so do nearly every fantasy game... that it has orcs and classes and levels and uses a d20 means nothing, to me. Why others feel the need to bash something... again, I don't really care. Like something, or don't like it. Say it, or shut up; once said, it doesn't have to be repeated-- we got you the first time.

Anyway, the point is that people, especially on message boards, love to argue. Its like phone bullying, only (and less) more anonymous.

Play what you like. Check out what interests you. Maybe something new can be found in something new... or, even in something old. That's half the fun anyway.

Those who can, don't. Those who should not, do.

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