Mars wrote:Just so we are clear, the only individual that I have specifically identified on RPG.net that has taken hundreds of images from numerous websites is you

As I've told Mars in private email, we regularly make use of cover images from manufacturer's sites, and I fully believe that making use of such an image falls within the boundaries of fair use. We make sure that our images fall into the category of fair use by requesting low-resolution images, usually in the 400-500 pixel width range, though that's mainly a question of not infringing on the original artwork, which is where things actually get sticky.

So, when he says, "hundreds of images", he means that I regularly troll Green Ronin, Paizo, Mongoose, Wizards, Troll Lords, and other current publishers and add their products and covers to our Index, using info from their sites, which I absolutely do.

(Though scans are always better, as I've seen more than one case where a publisher released a cover image onto the net that did not match their publication.)

Similarly, we've explicitly forbidden the use of images from other community sites, such as this one, because no matter what the legality, it's impolite.  Here's what we say on the topic: Pictures should come from your personal collection, from a manufacturer website, or else from someone else only with permission.

If Acaeum chooses not to give us permission to use pictures as part of a partnership, I'm going to add a specific restriction against Acaeum to that line, to do our best to make sure that none are uploaded in the future.

As an aside, if you firmly believe that all images on the internet are in the public domain, then why does your company skotos explicitly say:

I don't believe that, nor have I said that. It's unlikely that cover scans meet the minimum standard of originality that's required for copyright. That has nothing to do with whether they're on the internet or sitting on your hard drive. Clearly, the vast majority of pictures and photos are covered by copyright, no matter where they are, because they include original artistic expression.

Also, as I said, that doesn't change our policy with regard to a site like Acaeum, where we'll happily pull anything that we find originates from the site out of a matter of politeness.

Mars wrote:I believe the basis of "fair use" stems from the fact that you own a copy of the item.

You're incorrect. At least in the United States, as I don't know if this has been standardized under Bourne. There are very specific rules.

This summary is pretty good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use#F ... States_law

But as you say, the point is moot since you are asking permission and will remove images should need be.

Absolutely. TSR Archive has kindly given us permission. We'll be removing any images identified as from the Acaeum and the Tome of Treasure if we don't get permission for them (or, in fact, if we don't get a response by next week or so).

And I'm about done here. Send me mail or PM on RPGnet if there's any other concerns.

Mars wrote:The issue of taking the images from other websites is one issue.  I also think that a larger issue is that you are also stealing the content from places such as The Acaeum or Tome of Treasures.

I'm glad someone else noticed this.

There's two issues here, Shannon:

1. Fair use. A broad legal concept not specific to The Acaeum.

2. Stealing images from another site. Couldn't be simpler: you don't do it. This isn't your first day on the internet, so you know there's a right and a wrong involved here and your continued justifications are disingenuous at best.

Or, put another way: Whether you can use any images at all is a question of fair use. But, if you decide you can use representative cover images at your site, you need to get them from somewhere else. Or, gee, maybe you could just ask first next time.  

Or, to put it in one sentence: Stealing images from The Acaeum is not "fair use."

To be a little devil's advocate: it can also be argued that not sharing images, especially of items that are very difficult to find / own (due to rarity and cost for the "average person") makes the Acaeum look like a bunch of egotistical have-alls who don't want to be part of the greater community.

Not saying that is the case, but I'm sure someone will.

Yeah, asking first tends to be better in the long run.

Mars wrote:I think the "sharing" aspect can be seen in a couple of ways.  TSR archive has already given permission for their files to be shared, Tome of Treasure has not.

I think both of these are very understandable decisions.  TSR archive is a well established site that many of us use.  The Tome of Treasures on the other hand is still in the development stages.   If all the content and images are simply going to be taken from the Tome and put into some other established index then the Tome of Treasures has no chance of developing into the website it strives to be.  Perhaps down the line, the mutual sharing of information/images between the Tome and RPG.net could occur but it currently does not seem mutually benefitial.

I would also suggest that if the Acaeum decides to allow the images to be used that in each circumstance where an image is used, the diplayed image should also have a statement saying "this image is used with permission from the Acaeum" and have it linked here.



This seems rather minor when compared to ripping off content from other websites, claiming them to your own credit, then asking permission after you get caught - not exactly the model citizen of the RPG community.

To be honest, I am now contemplating, not adding any further public information to the Tome of Treasures.  Instead, I will build up my information privately, and it will be revealed when the Tome is in a more polished state (probably a year or two away).  This will at least give the Tome a chance as a website.

There is a quote that is perfect in regard to anything put up on the internet:

"No sooner seen than stolen".

Just wish I could remember who I lifted that quote from.

I like the Tome. It is, in some ways, better than Acaeum for finding information regarding printings of various things, because it is much more visual (and especially true for non-TSR items.) I would hate to see the site lost.

ShannonA wrote:
Absolutely. TSR Archive has kindly given us permission. We'll be removing any images identified as from the Acaeum and the Tome of Treasure if we don't get permission for them (or, in fact, if we don't get a response by next week or so).

Wouldn't the right move be to take down the images right away, then if and when permission is granted, put them back up?

For right or for wrong, I've gone ahead and granted rpg.net to use scans from this site, provided they credit The Acaeum on each page that uses such a scan.

Foul