No problem. I don't mind people knowing who I am. Ebay forced me to change my name because it was the same as my email address. I used to be listed as JasonZavoda on ebay. They just don't want to make it easy for sellers to be contacted outside of ebay. I tried telling them I just wanted to sell my stuff not join a cult but they insisted that I drink the kool-aid. I resisted but it is hard say no to the Dark Side of the Force (and it is so much easier to sell things on ebay than outside of it) so I caved.

Excellent write-up. I like the pictures in the other thread too.

Gnat the Beggar wrote:Jason: Yes I was totally aware it was you, just did not wish to point that out... wanted to leave that for you to do or not do as you wished...
FWIW: If you have the Map (see below) then yes, that book could be represented as a separate adventure scenario (see below).
Even so, I think the price it sold for was way too high, especially without the map...

Mars: I think Mike is actually speaking of the Castle Zagyg: Upper Works Box Set.
The Mouths of Madness is in fact Book 1 of that box set, with the main difference being a totally different cover.
As an aside, but very important to this discussion: That book should at the VERY LEAST include the Map of the Mouths of Madness (see below) which shows the areas described in the book itself.
Otherwise the book is nearly useless, except as a reading copy....
The book with that map could easily be used separately from the Gazetteer Folio and/or the Castle Zagyg Box Set as an adventure book.

A brief description and Contents list of The East Mark Gazetteer Folio: CZ9

Five Color Maps (four 1-sided and 1 is two sided) all 11" x 17" Single fold
1 & 2) Castle Zagyg Wilderness map (2 sides) Players Map and Castle Keepers Map.
This map locates the great Castle Zagyg, The Dark Chateau (Used by the mad wizard as his home while the Castle was being built), and several other areas of interest near the castle, including several wilderness encounters detailed in the Mouth of Madness book included in this set.
3) Map of the East Mark areas, including Yggsburgh Town to the Southwest and Castle Zagyg to the middle North
4) Map of Yggsburgh Town; with all the districts shown and a total of 24 place names listed to the side.
5) Map of a small portion of Castle Zagyg; The Mouths of Madness.

One Large 21" x 32" Four fold single sided color map of the known world of Erde.
This map corresponds with the data offered in the World Book of Erde, which can be found on e-Bay almost every day for $10 or less.
This same map is also attached (glue) inside the rear inside cover of The Book of Erde.

Gazetteer of East Mark: CZ9
24 numbered pages; staple bound Gazetteer.
This book is exactly what it sounds like.

The Mouths of Madness CZ9
48 numbered pages; staple bound adventure book.
Details given for the areas inside the Mouths of Madness
This book is a modified version of Adventures in Book I: Mouths of Madness, which is a part of the Box Set Castle Zagyg Volume II: The Upper Works.

Badmike wrote:
It appears to be a seller's market there, as there are no other copies available anywhere (checked Troll & Toad, Noble Knight, and they didn't even have the game in their database...which means they have NEVER had a copy to sell, ever).  It's considered one of the rarest RPGs ever published...stupidly rare. As in, some people who have experience in collecting have never seen a copy.  It's in shrink. Yeh, $500 is about what I would put on it myself until someone put up a copy cheaper to show me how much I was price gouging. Due to it's scarcity and lack of any competing prices, Jason would be dumb to price that at anything less than what he thinks it might sell for...now, if half a dozen other copies were on ebay for about $100-$200 each, I'd have to agree with you that this copy is overpriced. Didn't the author pop in here awhile back and sell all his copies?  Or did he just disappear?

Often collectors mistake their interest in an item for what the item is worth.  Because you aren't willing to pay more than $100 means nothing.  Hey, I'm not willing to pay more than $100 for an ST1, but I doubt I will ever find one for that price.  The best thing for Jason to do (for all of us, not necessarily for him) would be to put the thing up for auction. $500 might be light if two determined bidders went at it.

For someone who sells 100's of items a year and tens of thousands of items over the last decade, it is always amusing to hear those who don't have that experience talk about what items "should" sell for. If there is one lesson I have learned, it is that items sell for what they sell for, regardless of what anything thinks they are worth.  It is much better to price an item high and lower the price as necessary, you'll come closer to finding the true worth.    I personally have a database that I update every few years that show prices I have gotten for various items...in the long run they are usually remarkably consistent.  You wouldn't believe private offers I've gotten from determined collectors over the years which were several times what I would actually sell an item for, just because they wanted it NOW and didn't care about the price as long as it was theirs right then.  

Mike B.

The price that one and only one crazy guy would pay for is ABSOLUTELY not what an item worth. What you said is just: "if someone is so stupid that I can easily steal his money even if I know I overpriced the item, why not? Let's go, I am a very important seller, I know the correct price, everyone must believe in me! This nuts will pay!"
And it is well known that T&T or NKG, who sells 100's of items a year is completely aware of market prices. This statement is obvious, of course! True, absolutely true. Witch Hunt at $175 on NKG is obviously the correct price (NKG sells tons of items!), even if it sold for 20-50$ on ebay.

Being a huge seller does not mean that you know what you are sellling, especially when it is small-press item. I will never speak about TSR item values. But for non-TSR items, I think that I don't have a bad knowledge of market prices and rarity values.

As I said, the problem is that collectors who could be interested in are nearly all known and I guess that no one of us would pay more than $120 for it (i am not alone, if anyone would pay $500 for it, it would have been sold since several months).
And actuallu, to say that it is the rarest RPG ever is a non-sense. As most of small press items, unique or near unique items found to be sold on the internet are frequent. I am sure that Mark, Bill, Brette, Faro, etc. can list dozens of items which are not in any market database for example. I can list dozen as well: The Kingdom of Dolg (Dreamworlds Prod.) Monsters Guide (Adventures guild), Murder in Ashire (Fantasy Unlimited. The sole other copy known, and with different cover, is Mark one), The Lair of the Scarlet Elite (Gas Spore Pub.), The Serpent of Me'Tal (cardstock cover, High Level Adventures), The Greatest Evil (Thunderhead Gaming Center), Players and GM cards (Sutton Hoo Games), Medieval Occupations (Taliesyn Games), etc (even the 3 Inner City RPG supplements are not listed anywhere). And for RPG: Sphinx, Technical Reference Manual  (Different Worlds Publications), Victorian Adventure (SKS), Challengers and By the Gods (boxed ed., Ragnarok), KABAL 1st ed. boxed set, Mythworld (thanks to Mars!), Skill Masters (the same), etc. And what about the ones that Mark found and sold to NKG at very fair price before NKG listed them at insane price (like Exploiting Space or Nimole)?
And I do not include other language items... because, it is dozens like ANKH, Quartz, Royaume des Dragons, Miekka ja Magia,Yurl'h, etc

Does it mean they worth $500? In this case, I am rich! But of course not! Since no one would ever pay that price for them. Rarity and price are clearly not linked at all. The number of persons interested in an item is the only factor.

Even Kynan, who has oftenly being said to have excessive prices (I don't think so on most of his rarities), does not list his HUGE rarities at that price. Even unique items.

But I am totally ok that every seller can set the price he want. But he will have to wait for years to sell his overpriced item.

Badmike wrote:Items this stupidly rare exist in their own vacuum. Not enough sales to track or even calculate value until one or two are actually sold in an open auction. Until then, it's all speculation, but I'm just saying in these cases I would also err on the side of the item being worth more rather than less of expectations.

Absolutely but be realistic about it.  2 years and counting, continually for sale at $500 and no sale!  And that's with trying to use the Acaeum effect and the Acaeum forums as a mouthpiece to hype the sale.  Even the guy selling "Realm of No" who created a wiki page wasn't this bad.

Come on Mike, are you really trying to compare the dozen small press collectors who are interested in Phantasy Conclave to the hundreds/thousands of people who buy TSR and D&D?

lokiwookie wrote:

The price that one and only one crazy guy would pay for is ABSOLUTELY not what an item worth. What you said is just: "if someone is so stupid that I can easily steal his money even if I know I overpriced the item, why not? Let's go, I am a very important seller, I know the correct price, everyone must believe in me! This nuts will pay!"
And it is well known that T&T or NKG, who sells 100's of items a year is completely aware of market prices. This statement is obvious, of course! True, absolutely true. Witch Hunt at $175 on NKG is obviously the correct price (NKG sells tons of items!), even if it sold for 20-50$ on ebay.

But in the case of something like Phantasy, we dont KNOW what the item is worth. The sample size is much too small.  How would anyone know if they overpriced the item in that case?  I'd agree with you on about anything else.  I can only speak from experience, I have had individual collectors OFFER crazy prices for items I don't think are worth that much....once a guy offered a completely crazy price on an item I said I would not part with, and when I questioned his offer he stated "In my job I make $100 an hour, so this is just a day's work, no big deal".  I've learned never to underestimate the collector's need to own something that is incredibly rare.  

Being a huge seller does not mean that you know what you are sellling, especially when it is small-press item. I will never speak about TSR item values. But for non-TSR items, I think that I don't have a bad knowledge of market prices and rarity values.

If there are absolutely zero sales (or maybe one or two) in the last decade of an item, there can't be a consensus.  Look at some of the manuscript and original map prices over the last few years.   I can sit here and say these are going for far too much money,  but having nothing to compare it to (except other manuscript sales of different items), I can't know for sure.  I've been selling online for almost 20 years now; there are very few mainstream items I haven't owned or had pass through my hands in that time, and quite a few rares.  It's one of the reasons I won't personally overpay for certain items, because they tend to eventually pop up if you are in the business long enough.  But we all know sellers who buy like their ass is on fire....patience is out the door.  

As I said, the problem is that collectors who could be interested in are nearly all known and I guess that no one of us would be more than $120 for it (i am not alone, if anyone would pay $500 for it, it would have been sold since several months).

[/quote]

I would counter there are always new people, some with wallets full of money, jumping into our hobby. I have met three of these just in the last year.  Right now they are mostly focused on recognized TSR items, but if non-TSR stuff catches their eye, you never know.  All that is needed is for one of those to get interested in certain items for the value to rise. One of these gentlemen just offered me several thousand dollars for all my magazines...not because they are worth that much, but the buyer thought it would save time to get a full Dungeon, Polyhedron, Imagine, Different Worlds, nearly complete Dragon mag and other sets, right at that moment instead of going through the drudgery of getting a collection piecemeal.

I guess my point is to not assume that because you or someone you know won't pay that much for an item, that NO ONE will pay that much for the same item. If Jason was selling a copy of T1-4 for $200 I'd be the first to chide him. I honestly don't have a clue what the Phantasy would get on an open marketplace, even in the degraded condition it is in, but if I owned it I'd definitely bet high.

Mike B.

Mars wrote:

Badmike wrote:Items this stupidly rare exist in their own vacuum. Not enough sales to track or even calculate value until one or two are actually sold in an open auction. Until then, it's all speculation, but I'm just saying in these cases I would also err on the side of the item being worth more rather than less of expectations.

Absolutely but be realistic about it.  2 years and counting, continually for sale at $500 and no sale!  And that's with trying to use the Acaeum effect and the Acaeum forums as a mouthpiece to hype the sale.  Even the guy selling "Realm of No" who created a wiki page wasn't this bad.

Come on Mike, are you really trying to compare the dozen small press collectors who are interested in Phantasy Conclave to the hundreds/thousands of people who buy TSR and D&D?

No, but you and I know, Mars, in that sample size there are some fanatics.  Sure it seems after two years with no bites that $500 is overvalued (didn't he originally list it at $600?).  Maybe he's creating his own market....if he lowers it to $400, it might jump out the door.

My point is just that with literally NO examples to go by, I'd also go higher rather than lower in my expectations. Look I've had plenty of items I literally forgot about in my Ebay store that sit there at a ridiculous price for months, but you know what?  Before I lower the price they sometimes sell!  It may not be two years but I've had items sitting for 18 months (that's when Ebay sends a reminder out that your item has had no sales in a year and a half so you might want to rethink your prices).  But also I am a different seller than Jason, I have to sell or I dont pay the rent, so sure I would have lowered the price by now if it was mine (backstock doesn't make you money).  If the listing was costing me 60 cents a year and I didn't need to sell, I wouldn't give a damn (or I'd put it up for auction out of sheer curiousity).  Once again, until we have some sort of a sample size, I haven't a clue as to what Phantasy (or any other super rare) is truly worth.

Badmike wrote: Once again, until we have some sort of a sample size, I haven't a clue as to what Phantasy (or any other super rare) is truly worth.

Easy. Examples?

Kingdom of Dolg

** expired/removed eBay auction **


Murder in Ashire

** expired/removed eBay auction **

3 pages of discussion to advertise it. Acaeum effect at his paroxism. Designed especially for D&D. More focus on D&D collectors, than on small press collectors. Absolutely not the same market. A lot more of people interested than in Phantasy Conclave. Clearly.
And it is a nearly unique, "unpublished" item. Phantasy conclave is totally different in its publication history.

lokiwookie wrote:Designed especially for D&D. More focus on D&D collectors, than on small press collectors.

Really?  I didnt think any of those were designed specifically for D&D.

lokiwookie wrote:Yes, but for small press items, we have a lot, lot, lot of examples. This item has nothing different than all other small press items. Examples are legion... I am not sure that anyone will pay more than $200 for it one day. Even $150. Comparing with the numerous other small press RPG/items like this one, I am pretty sure that in an open auction it would sold for no more than $150.

+1

As an aside, a lot of the disagreement is over what's the definition of value. To some it's the highest price someone would pay for it, to others it's an average value among collectors, and to some still it's the expectation of its final sale price in open auction.

Also, there are many different types of collectors, in terms of tastes, objectives (both in goals and purpose), and temperament. Auction prices are always going to be driven by the highest marginal valued user.

As a consequence, should we care that someone asks $200 for a TOEE? It most likely won't sell. But what if it did? We still buy things at way below market value all the time. In such cases, do we inform the seller - "Could I please pay $50 more? I got this too cheaply." Rarely. Do sellers have an obligation that consumers do not?

Differences in information and tastes is what makes a market. Learning the market - whether by observation or, more frequently, trial and error - and having prices allocate resources, is what makes the price system so efficient.