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MetaSigma
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Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:33 pm

faro wrote:Not that that's likely to end up sold for $5 in a garage sale if you're no longer around?

I dunno, one of my collection "fears" is that my survivors will see some of this stuff and decide to just chuck it as not being worth the effort. When some of the items are six or seven sheets of paper with a staple in them or a stack of old paperback books, the $5 yard sale scenario seems increasingly likely. Plus, I've got $100, $300, and $500 items on the bookshelves mixed in with the $5 and $10 items, and only someone knowledgeable would be able to discern the difference. I suppose I need to bite the bullet and make a list of (at least) the higher value stuff with estimates.

Ithaca Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-

Mars
Grandstanding Collector

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Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:35 pm

This is an old discussion - do a search on these forums and I'm sure you can find more than a few threads about it.

It usually boils down to what is the consequence of your action? The seller had posted the item for sale on Ebay (knowing or not knowing the value) but Ebay would have determined a value for him. If you made him a lowball offer (knowing it was a lowball offer), then you have cost the seller money. Your action manipulated the situation to your benefit and his detriment.

Very different situation from the auction ending with a low bid.

MetaSigma
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Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:40 pm

Mars wrote:This is an old discussion - do a search on these forums and I'm sure you can find more than a few threads about it.

It usually boils down to what is the consequence of your action? The seller had posted the item for sale on Ebay (knowing or not knowing the value) but Ebay would have determined a value for him. If you made him a lowball offer (knowing it was a lowball offer), then you have cost the seller money. Your action manipulated the situation to your benefit and his detriment.

Very different situation from the auction ending with a low bid.

I'm not seeing the distinction... If an auction goes for a figure that's "too low", it's the seller's "fault" because they didn't put a reserve on it or make the starting bid high enough. If they accept a lowball offer that is somehow "too low", then they were willing to sell the item at that price, later regrets notwithstanding. I make lowball offers on Make an Offer listings all the time. Most are rejected, a few aren't. What's the issue? The notion that the buyer has "cost the seller money" is just silly. The buyer has paid the seller money... No?

Ithaca Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-

Mars
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Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:06 pm

I'm not sure how to make it clearer:

A seller lists an item (no reserve, no BIN, no Make an offer) - the parameters of the auction are set. Everyone has their shot to bid (most wait until the last minute to bid). The market determines the value. If it sells low, then its on the seller for how he sold it.

When a buyer makes an offer under these conditions, they are trying to manipulate the seller. The seller had set forth a course of action and the buyer (knowing it will sell for more than he wanted to pay) attempts to circumvent the auction process to get the item. If it was going to sell for less, the buyer would just wait for the auction to run its course. The actions of one buyer manipulated a situation to their advantage.

Take it as you will - its a touchy subject

There has been general forum outrage on more than one occasion when others have done this.

faro
Long-Winded Collector

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Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:22 pm

dbartman wrote:That is rubbish. Unless you are being deceptive, there is nothing wrong with buying something and turning a profit on it. That is the essence of business of any kind. There is no "code of ethics' that obligates someone to inform a seller of the true potential of the item they are selling. That is the seller's obligation, and if they don't do their research, then they are not very good at business or don't care.

Even some people who think they've done their research end up falling for other people's scams. One recent example was for a "rare" that had been priced against Troll and Toad's "sale price" where the seller was unaware that T&T have a habit of increasing those prices (on items out of stock!) once they have been purchased "on the cheap". I nudged the seller (original owner) to up their price and the item was still sold within a day: happy buyer, happy seller; is that a problem?
It would've been just as easy to ditch the "code of ethics" - permit me to have one, albeit nebulous, even if others don't - and turn a few hundred bucks profit on a seller having been somewhat deceived as to the actual "value" of their item by one of the industry's "big names".

Anyhow, (IMHO) if I know someone makes $100 offers on items worth $500 and crows about their "bargain buys" on the fora there's no way I'm going to point any would-be seller in their direction. And I'm going to be darned careful to watch my own back, too.

"Turning a profit" may be required for business (for those "in business") but that can be done by "paying a fair price" as well as just "buying as cheaply as possible".

"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

DiscoDadda
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Location: Steeler Country

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:14 pm

A key point in the guy from France's moral attack was not so much the fact that I bought them in a negotiated deal but the fact I relisted them at a higher price. So therefore I prevented a "true collector" from acquiring the items at what he thought was a reasonable price.

What also is being lost in the conversation is the fact that because the population of the items in France is higher and more common than the items in the USA. I am taking advantage of the market inefficiencies and the fact that there are collectors of these items in the States, who are willing to pay a higher price for 1 or 2 of the items, without the hassle and expense of buying from France.

I was thinking of the movie Trading Places... when Dan Akroyd was pawning his hugely expensive watch the pawn shop owner said:

"In Philadelphia it's worth 50 bucks."

Disco

Pipswich
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Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:20 pm

Presumably the seller is a consenting adult and there was no contract for sell with a third party. If so, the buyer complaining simply has sour grapes. Many people feel that life has treated them miserably, but without taking action to remedy their unhappiness.

You made an offer the seller accepted. Good for both of you. The smelly grapes guy will find something new to be unhappy about soon. It's a way of life for some folk.

Pipswich Peddles (and trades) for his collection!
http://stores.ebay.com/Pipswich-Peddles

Pipswich
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:31 pm

I pity the fool who's "soul mate" needs a shrink wrapped map to the jewels.

** expired/removed eBay auction **

Pipswich Peddles (and trades) for his collection!
http://stores.ebay.com/Pipswich-Peddles

clangador
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:32 am

Mars wrote:This is an old discussion - do a search on these forums and I'm sure you can find more than a few threads about it.

It usually boils down to what is the consequence of your action? The seller had posted the item for sale on Ebay (knowing or not knowing the value) but Ebay would have determined a value for him. If you made him a lowball offer (knowing it was a lowball offer), then you have cost the seller money. Your action manipulated the situation to your benefit and his detriment.

Very different situation from the auction ending with a low bid.

The whole point is to make money. If the seller accepts a low offer that is their choice and/or foolishness.

~Clangador
---------------

Black Blade Publishing imprint of OSRIC is not only the most definitive printing of OSRIC to date, but also the single greatest resource for old school gamers since the three original hardbacks written by E. Gary Gygax.

Mars
Grandstanding Collector

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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:10 pm

clangador wrote:The whole point is to make money. If the seller accepts a low offer that is their choice and/or foolishness.

Yep, lie/cheat/steal/manipulate to make a buck is definitely one attitude/point of view that many people adopt.

Note: I am not saying this in relation to Disco's & this French seller's issue. I don't know anything about the stuff he bought and is reselling to say he paid an unfair price for the market they were listed in, etc.

This is however, has in the past been something that has happened a number of time for rare TSR stuff.

A seller lists a tournament module, OB3, brown box or some other rare item starting at a 99 cent listing (not knowing what these really are). Some buyer shoots him an email saying I will give you $100 today to cancel your auction today. The BUYER has knowingly manipulated the seller not for mutual benefit but strictly for his own benefit.

Very different from a seller listing an item with a low BIN price or poorly advertising and the item selling cheap - that is strictly the SELLER's responsibility.

Everyone has their own personal level of morality on where they draw the line.

ashmire13
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:10 pm

Pipswich wrote:Presumably the seller is a consenting adult and there was no contract for sell with a third party. If so, the buyer complaining simply has sour grapes. Many people feel that life has treated them miserably, but without taking action to remedy their unhappiness.

You made an offer the seller accepted. Good for both of you. The smelly grapes guy will find something new to be unhappy about soon. It's a way of life for some folk.

Why doesnt it surprise me that you are perfectly happy for (and not suggesting that DiscoDadda did this) a buyer to persuade a seller to sell cheap, knowing they are getting a bargain. Its been shown to be your forte for many a year on this forum alone.

Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

Beyondthebreach
Verbose Collector
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:21 pm

I go away for a few years and the same topic keeps coming up.

I think everyone is in agreement that if you get a good deal and make a profit from it, there is no harm. But, come on now, there is no point being obtuse, we all know what "manipulating" a seller means. It is an effort to get someone to sell lower before others buy the item for a more reasonable price. Those who make these kind of offers are hoping for two things:

- That the seller has no idea of the value of the item
- That the seller has no real experience with selling any kind of item or of how to use the internet/ebay to even research possible item values. In short, they are hoping to find someone they can "fool".

When discussed on the forum, we are usually not privy to the actual conversation - some, I am sure, are more innocent than others . . .

i.e. "Will you take $50 for such-and-such."

Some a lot more devious - "you know, that item really isn't worth more than $40, but I've been wanting it for sometime and I am in a hurry to get it, so would you take $50 for it? It's more than you are likely to get if you let it run the auction course. " (all the time knowing that said item will go for much more than this).

Choose your moral ground - it doesn't make you the worst person in the world, but don't play naive and act like there is nothing underhanded going on with these kind of dealings. If you are going to be a little shady, at least acknowledge it for what it is.

"Gleemonex makes it feel like it's seventy-two degrees in your head... all... the... time! "

clangador
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:00 am

Caveat venditor. Let the seller beware. I have profited greatly from finding collectible things in used book stores at ridiculously low prices on a number of occasions. In fact, I make fairly regular rounds of used book stores and thrift stores looking for stuff I can resell.

Beyondthebreach
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:06 am

clangador wrote:Caveat venditor. Let the seller beware. I have profited greatly from finding collectible things in used book stores at ridiculously low prices on a number of occasions. In fact, I make fairly regular rounds of used book stores and thrift stores looking for stuff I can resell.

I am in complete agreement. (that, however, is not what I was saying above).

"Gleemonex makes it feel like it's seventy-two degrees in your head... all... the... time! "

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