NY Times: 5th Edition officially announced..... • Page 2 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

The Acaeum Forums • Collecting General

NY Times: 5th Edition officially announced.....
	Page 2 of 5 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Author

Badmike
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 8079
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jun 24, 2026
Location: DFW TX

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:58 pm

Kingofpain89 wrote:Badmike wrote:
Here's some of the stuff I would like to see:

Compatibility with older editions

By "compatibility" do you mean writing up 5th Edition using the 1st or 2nd Edition rules and tweaking them a bit so they arent exactly the same? Or are you referring to something else completely?

You should be able to pick up T1 Village of Hommlet or Night Below box and play it using 5E rules. Conversely, you should be able to pick up a 5E adventure and play it using 1E rules. I can do this with any of the retro-clones and that's the kind of experience I want with D&D.

Badmike wrote:
Again release the older PDF modules and rules sets

This is a no-brainer. But I wouldnt release the older stuff right away. They are trying to get people interested in a new product. Instead, I would put out the older modules updated for the new rules and use different artwork. There is significant interest, at least if you go by Ebay prices, for the limited edition modules such as Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan and Beyond the Crystal Cave even if they have little to do with the originals. Release the old rules and mods in pdf format after the new system is out for a bit.

Release pdfs of the all stuff to show that it's compatible with the new game. That's how inclusive 5E should be.

Badmike wrote:
A beginner set in the style of Frank's Red Box

Hell, it should be written by Frank.

I wonder if they will continue to ignore the depth of experience in designing among the old school guys that attend the NTRPG con in favor of new kewl stuf.

Badmike wrote:
Character generator and DM helper much the same as the AD&D 2.0 core rules

I am kind of surprised that WotC hasnt included something similar to this in their introductory rule sets. Put a Core Rules DVD with other useful, interesting content (character portrait generator, adventure music, etc.) in the box and allow the DM and players to download additional content as its available for a small fee.

Hell, I thought this was a significant flaw for 3E.

Badmike wrote:
Move away from a computer game experience to what makes D&D unique, the tabletop game experience.

As much as I would like this to be possible, I dont think it is anymore. Kids (and seemingly most adults) these days want everything to fit in the palm of their hand or at least at their fingertips (as long as they are resting on a mouse). By limiting D&D to a tabletop only game you limit your audience. Going back to the roots of D&D isnt a bad thing as long as technology plays a significant part in it. Finding a way to combine the tabletop experience with technology, IMHO, is the key to grabbing back their share of the market from Paizo. And I know its been done, but it hasnt been done well.....not yet anyway.

No, my point was misunderstood, I'm not saying never make a computer game out of D&D. I'm saying the tabletop gaming experience shouldn't attempt to ape the computer game experience. Make a tabletop game and stick with it....you don't have to try to translate World of Warcraft to a tabletop game. Frankly, I could care less about limiting the audience anyway, Paizo has zero computer connection and they are kicking WOTC's ass all over the place, so I don't think this limits the audience one bit if it comes to people you want playing your game. Look at some of the most successful tabletop/board games.....Descent, Pandemic, Ticket to Ride, Runebound, whatever.....they don't tend to ape computer game formulas, they are a board game first. D&D should be first a tabletop pen and paper game. Video gamers are never going to be that interested in tabletop games anymore and catering to them is a huge mistake.

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

ExTSR
Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor
Valuation Board

Posts: 1945
Joined: May 01, 2004
Last Visit: Aug 06, 2026
Location: Almost Lake Geneva, WI

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:22 pm

bbarsh wrote:Weird that they would shoot 4e in the back so far in advance of yet another system.

What makes you think it won't be out this year?

Blackmoor
Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3601
Joined: Dec 20, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 13, 2026
Location: Canada

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:25 pm

ExTSR wrote:What makes you think it won't be out this year?

Maybe for Gencon??

Games can get you through times of no money but money can not get you through times of no games!!

smarmy1
Prolific Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 916
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Last Visit: Aug 06, 2026
Location: Mobile, Alabama

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:19 pm

Badmike wrote:Frankly, I could care less about limiting the audience anyway, Paizo has zero computer connection and they are kicking WOTC's ass all over the place, ...

This was from a few months back...

Paizo Licenses Pathfinder MMO Rights

Also, I would not discount the ability of computer games to draw people back to playing board/face-to-face/RPG games.

Hello Mrs. Cleaver, Theodore.

Gee, Mrs. Cleaver ... That certainly is a lovely dress.

Zenfinite
Prolific Collector

Posts: 417
Joined: May 07, 2007
Last Visit: Mar 28, 2026

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:33 pm

ExTSR wrote:What makes you think it won't be out this year?

Don't you do that to me Frank. :lol:

I can't imagine a game going from a limited friends and family playtest to full on published release in 8 months, in time for Gen Con. How about this then: I'd be very unhappy if that was all the testing they did on it, and I'd also be very worried about the future of our game going forward with that short a testing phase.

Zen

Badmike
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 8079
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jun 24, 2026
Location: DFW TX

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:31 pm

smarmy1 wrote:
This was from a few months back...

Paizo Licenses Pathfinder MMO Rights

Also, I would not discount the ability of computer games to draw people back to playing board/face-to-face/RPG games.

But the game is still in development, and the fact stands Paizo has trounced WOTC without a computer based product. I'd love to see any evidence, even anecdotal, that gamers playing World of Warcraft or Skyrim give pencil and paper games more than just a one-shot try, but I don't see it. They certainly aren't going from online computer games to older versions (again unless I'm just not seeing it somewhere) in any sort of numbers big enough to justify deep-sixing the traditional tabletop interface to pander to that segment of gamers.

I don't want WOTC to feel computer products form an essential D&D game experience, it's great as an ancillary product building off the original game, but I just don't see the connection between playing a video game and then wanting to get really involved in a pencil and paper tabletop version of the same thing.

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

Midian_Beasttoothe
Active Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 60
Joined: May 29, 2009
Last Visit: Jan 01, 2025
Location: Michigan, USA

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:35 pm

Badmike wrote:
But the game is still in development, and the fact stands Paizo has trounced WOTC without a computer based product. I'd love to see any evidence, even anecdotal, that gamers playing World of Warcraft or Skyrim give pencil and paper games more than just a one-shot try, but I don't see it. They certainly aren't going from online computer games to older versions (again unless I'm just not seeing it somewhere) in any sort of numbers big enough to justify deep-sixing the traditional tabletop interface to pander to that segment of gamers.

I don't want WOTC to feel computer products form an essential D&D game experience, it's great as an ancillary product building off the original game, but I just don't see the connection between playing a video game and then wanting to get really involved in a pencil and paper tabletop version of the same thing.

Mike B.

I know of one such case in which you speak. One of the guys in my game group was excited when my friend (his workmate) told him about our D&D (Now Pathfinder) game. He had played online games etc. and all of the old D&D computer games, but never knew anyone who played. He came to the group... fit in great, became an incredible Dungeon Master... and most recently, married my Step Daughter. Pure evolution from computer games to tabletop? maybe not. But it was the fantasy computer games that perked his interest.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Friends help you move. True friends help you move bodies...

smarmy1
Prolific Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 916
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Last Visit: Aug 06, 2026
Location: Mobile, Alabama

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:17 pm

Badmike wrote:I'd love to see any evidence, even anecdotal, that gamers playing World of Warcraft or Skyrim give pencil and paper games more than just a one-shot try, but I don't see it.

I have witnessed this first-hand with my sons and their friends. Sure they enjoy video games like Skyrim, World of Warcraft, and all the first person shooters, but it is hard to beat the open-ended possibilities of character creation, exploration, and adventuring available in D&D/RPG games. That is what they find totally amazing compared to the inherent limitations of today's pre-programmed, computer games/simulations. Multi-player video games can allow for a greater range of freedom and interactions, but you are still limited by what has been incorporated/programmed into the virtual environment.

I certainly do not believe Paizo's strategy is to bring all computer gamers back into the fold of tabletop RPG's. That would be silly. D&D is not for everyone; however, for those of who have been raised on a diet solely consisting of video games, a real, face-to-face gaming session can be intriguing. In my office, several of the younger people (20 something's) are constantly asking me to run a D&D session as they have heard me talk of my D&D adventures with my kids and online buddies. I will probably do this in the next few weeks either with AD&D or the Pathfinder Beginner Box Set; either way, they will get a taste of gaming and open-ended adventuring.

Badmike wrote:I don't want WOTC to feel computer products form an essential D&D game experience, it's great as an ancillary product building off the original game, but I just don't see the connection between playing a video game and then wanting to get really involved in a pencil and paper tabletop version of the same thing.

Paizo certainly seems to have captured market share with the Pathfinder RPG, and licensing their rules for an online game will certainly give them more name recognition with computer gamers if it is ever released. Who knows the online Pathfinder version may be a poor-man's substitute for RPG adventuring when there's no DM or other players around similar to Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and World of Warcraft. Will it drive thousands, millions, ten to play the tabletop version? Not necessarily, but it may pique their interest when the site that is their portal for the game also advertises the pen-and-paper version.

Hello Mrs. Cleaver, Theodore.

Gee, Mrs. Cleaver ... That certainly is a lovely dress.

mordrin
Prolific Collector

Posts: 432
Joined: Jan 30, 2004
Last Visit: Aug 04, 2026
Location: Chicagoish

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:30 pm

Zenfinite wrote:
Don't you do that to me Frank. I can't imagine a game going from a limited friends and family playtest to full on published release in 8 months, in time for Gen Con. How about this then: I'd be very unhappy if that was all the testing they did on it, and I'd also be very worried about the future of our game going forward with that short a testing phase.

Zen

Yeah, that would be awful if they faked interest in getting feedback on a nearly finished product and pushed it out the door in time for summer.

I heard somewhere DDXP is scheduled to be a part of GenCon 2013 (instead of being a separate con), with the theory that that would be the time to introduce the new edition.

Sounds plausible to me. 19 months is a fair amount of time to sit on a dying edition, but I just don't see how they could seriously do 7.
After releasing a print game that required a 'patch' (3.5 - and you had to pay for the patch, on top of it), then abandoning an edition that was still very popular, and then producing a stink bomb like 4E that was quickly left kicking in the wind, this is their last chance to get a handle on things, IMO, before the fanbase is hopelessly fractured.

Magelin
Prolific Collector

Posts: 601
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Last Visit: Mar 04, 2024
Location: Cleveland, OH

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:38 pm

Title of thread changed... :wink:

Original 28mm fantasy gaming miniatures at http://www.centerstageminis.com

Keith the Thief
Verbose Collector

Posts: 1026
Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Last Visit: Apr 19, 2026
Location: Huntsville, Ala.

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:25 pm

Badmike wrote:
But the game is still in development, and the fact stands Paizo has trounced WOTC without a computer based product. I'd love to see any evidence, even anecdotal, that gamers playing World of Warcraft or Skyrim give pencil and paper games more than just a one-shot try, but I don't see it. They certainly aren't going from online computer games to older versions (again unless I'm just not seeing it somewhere) in any sort of numbers big enough to justify deep-sixing the traditional tabletop interface to pander to that segment of gamers.

I don't want WOTC to feel computer products form an essential D&D game experience, it's great as an ancillary product building off the original game, but I just don't see the connection between playing a video game and then wanting to get really involved in a pencil and paper tabletop version of the same thing.

Mike B.

My experience with my kids and their friends gives me the impression that they segregate video games from tabletop games in the same way that they separate video games from, say, basketball.

My daughter loves playing basketball, but has no interest in playing a simulation of it on Playstation.

My son, who plays football, does play EA football, but it's more of a mindless escape as opposed to COD, which he and his friends take seriously.

Now, my son and I have been playing Axis & Allies, and he loves it.
And the kids (my own, my nephews, tehir firends) seem intrigued by the idea of a tabletop RPG.

But if there's going to be a 5E, and I guess there is, I also want it to be backward compatible with 1E and the retro rules.

I have no freakin clue how you'd do this, since each edition has its own stats and mechanics, but surely there's enough commonality that you could have a flexible set of "rules" that rely more on players "role playing" rather than "roll playing".
And I also want a change in mindset, one that transfers power back to the DM.
That's a big deal to me.

Or am I just jonesing for a return to 1e and/or OD&D?

And now, with this 11th novel well under way, and a good day's writing ahead, back to the studio .....

"Never let it be said I didn’t do the least I could do."

Keith the Thief
Verbose Collector

Posts: 1026
Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Last Visit: Apr 19, 2026
Location: Huntsville, Ala.

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:30 pm

Keith the Thief wrote:tehir firends seem intrigued by the idea of a tabletop RPG.

*their friends

Tehir firends is a monster from Fiend Folio. ;-)

"Never let it be said I didn’t do the least I could do."

faro
Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3153
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Last Visit: Feb 05, 2016
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:26 am

Keith the Thief wrote:
*their friends

Tehir firends is a monster from Friend Folio.

*fixes*

"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

faro
Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3153
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Last Visit: Feb 05, 2016
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:39 am

ExTSR wrote:It's real and it's current, though they probably have 75% of it done.
I checked with Mike Mearls myself today, to be sure.

Glad to hear they kept you in the loop, Frank, to ask for opinions on how best to make the "new iteration" a success like you did before...

Already too late for the suggestions in the NY Times article (erm, they /only/ have a "Video Games" section?) if the framework is at that stage, I'd've thought. Not that D&D can really escape far from the "kill things, get gold, increase power" "roleplaying" paradigm anyhow. Tavis's comments read almost tongue-in-cheek in that context.

"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

Keith the Thief
Verbose Collector

Posts: 1026
Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Last Visit: Apr 19, 2026
Location: Huntsville, Ala.

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:55 am

faro wrote:*fixes*

Tahnks. Tpyos are my bain ;-)

"Never let it be said I didn’t do the least I could do."

Keith the Thief
Verbose Collector

Posts: 1026
Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Last Visit: Apr 19, 2026
Location: Huntsville, Ala.

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:06 pm

I hope (but doubt) that the folks at WoTC have read this Old School Primer by Matthew Finch (who may be one of you).

http://www.lulu.com/product/ebook/quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/3159558

It's a free PDF download.
I really advocate old school or 1E rules as the best way to have a tabletop RPG experience;
but I have to admit that I have a foot in the Paizo Pathfinder camp these days.

"Never let it be said I didn’t do the least I could do."

mbassoc2003
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:32 pm

There is no money in mimicking old school D&D, certainly not enough to warrant an investment by WotC. The only plausable publishing opportunity they have in that area would be a complete relaunch of the original games system in one of its original format (i.e a release of all books and modules). A new 'version' of one of the older systems could not fail to be a lemon, because it would just be another layer/variation of a system that has had the arse kicked out of it so many times it no longer twitches.

WotC seem to be trying to copy GW, badly, and they don't realise that the two companies have two completely different games. It makes you wonder whether or not the people designing and marketing the product have any interest in gamers or gaming outside of their own pay packets.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Keith the Thief
Verbose Collector

Posts: 1026
Joined: Jun 05, 2005
Last Visit: Apr 19, 2026
Location: Huntsville, Ala.

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:54 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:There is no money in mimicking old school D&D, certainly not enough to warrant an investment by WotC. The only plausable publishing opportunity they have in that area would be a complete relaunch of the original games system in one of its original format (i.e a release of all books and modules).

Maybe that's not too far removed from what I was thinking.
Do you think a re-launch would make money, if it came from Hasbro with the D&D brand name?

I don't have much insight into the business side of gaming. that's why I ask.

"Never let it be said I didn’t do the least I could do."

The Acaeum Forums • Collecting General

Page 2 of 5 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5