The Lost Topic Thread • Page 2 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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The Lost Topic Thread
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Badmike
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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:21 pm

ScketreWhisp® wrote:Mike, that WAS the 2nd print being sold at RPGMarketplace.com

you missed out and now you are asking for a 3rd print and want to buy 10 copies... talk about watering down the print run !

Last year PotVQ took 6 months to sell out, we only sold about 25 at the Con...

So I decided to only print 100 of the DG since I had no clue how may would actually sell (25% at the Con is not a reason to print more)

We sold 56 at the Con this year, but many people got others tickets that didn't want to buy them (last year, not tickets.. I just kept a list of who bought what, which was a pain) so more sold at the Con... but since last year they could ONLY buy one, that many many that sold after the Con were probably to some of the same people at the Con.

Still trying to sell 44 after the Con this year, I figured it could take a while... okay it didn't.

But I had already stated that we would only print 100.

If we decide to print something next year (possibly Misty Isle) then we may look at a larger print run... BUT, Misty Isle came out as a Digest booklet and it is way less expensive than PotVQ or DG to begin with... so does it really need a reprint ? we will see... may only do 50 (I don't even collect Misty Isle so I don't see the value for a TSR collection)

Next year will tell based on any feedback/requests I get.

So print another 50........ :wink:

Mike B.

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ExTSR
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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:57 pm

I think you're safest to just not go there any more.

And there are a lot of outstanding authors writing outstanding stuff for use (often premiering) at the convention.

Just do Digests of those, all in the family (ie all NorTex events and all by NorTex attendees).
The finances can be constructed to make it a win/win situation.

Think about it, at least, eh?

Badmike
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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:23 pm

ExTSR wrote:I think you're safest to just not go there any more.

And there are a lot of outstanding authors writing outstanding stuff for use (often premiering) at the convention.

Just do Digests of those, all in the family (ie all NorTex events and all by NorTex attendees).
The finances can be constructed to make it a win/win situation.

Think about it, at least, eh?

Except for Wee Warriors (which we have permission to reprint) I agree. Lots of great stuff being put out by con attendees.

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

Last edited by Badmike on Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ScketreWhisp®
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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:45 am

Zenopus wrote:Doug, are you going to offer a $2 non-printable pdf of Dwarven Glory like you did with POTV? I thought that was a good solution for accessibility after the print version sold out.

Not sure on the DG... non printable for as long as it took you to download it, you can remove the limitation for free using readily available online software... thus my delima

Zenopus
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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:51 am

ScketreWhisp® wrote:
Not sure on the DG... non printable for as long as it took you to download it, you can remove the limitation for free using readily available online software... thus my delima

Hmm, didn't know that. Does that apply to the watermark as well? Is there a way to embed the watermark so it's not removable? Like in Photoshop when you "flatten" layers & the two images become one.

Zenopus Archives website & blog: Exploring the Underworld of Holmes Basic D&D. Holmes Ref: Reference Sheets for Holmes Basic Referees, also compatible with OD&D plus the Greyhawk supplement

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:41 am

Just curious about the moral position of publishing 'research copies' whic are likely a serious money earner for the 'researchers' who buy them, and someone publishing a PDF 'for research purposes only'. It seems as though in the interest of making money and 'research', you have knowingly broken copyright law. I cannot square the circle between people condoning this activity and taking the opportunity to profit from it, and then standing against illegal PDFs being published.

If something has IP owned by someone else, but the sale or even free distribution of that information no longer affects the marketable value of that information, no longer potentially prevents someone getting their royalties, and no longer potentially reduces sales; it is either acceptable to ignore copyright law, or not acceptable. And breaking the law is either morally acceptable or not. As I see it, people cannot say, morally I think this is acceptable because I profit from it, or my friend profits by it, but on the other hand this is not morally acceptable because I don't want to see a PDF of this online and it might devalue something I own in the marketplace.

There seems to be hypocracy here when it comes to the illegal copies and their acceptance by the community, as the moral decision seems to be one of who makes money and gains benefit, and who does not.

Surely these 'research copies' as they are called, are as much much a pirate product as all the people we condem on this board for selling fakes on eBay? I don't quite get why we see this as being acceptable as a forum because it is done by one of our own, whereas if a seller was to start selling photocopies of PoVQ on eBay we'd be all over him for selling fakes and making money from it. I had always thought the moral compass on the board was a fairly clearly defined thing, but this issue seems to have softenned the attitude to copyright theft and blurred the moral compass because we are making money from it it is being done by one of our own.

Don't get me wrong. I am neither for nor against the issue of 'dated copyright infringement', I am merely seeking to understand the hypocracy that the issue has unveiled.

.

Clearly DG, PoVQ, etc. are authorised reprints, and should now be listed as such in the appropriate section on the forum.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:59 am, edited 5 times in total.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:44 am

Zenopus wrote:
Hmm, didn't know that. Does that apply to the watermark as well? Is there a way to embed the watermark so it's not removable? Like in Photoshop when you "flatten" layers & the two images become one.

It is possible to watermark a PDF in a manner that is cannot be removed by any software. It is time consuming to do it in a manner similar to what you have said, but you can make a watermarked background image unremovable from in any document.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

MetaSigma
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:42 am

mbassoc2003 wrote:Don't get me wrong. I am neither for nor against the issue of 'dated copyright infringement', I am merely seeking to understand the hypocracy that the issue has unveiled.

There doesn't seem to be all that much hypocrisy going on, as far as I can tell. If you look closely through the "Report Sellers who infringe copyrights" thread, you'll see that only about 6 or 7 members post there, and of those, very few seem likely to have been involved with what Doug has done with GT (by receiving one or more copies) or have expressly stated they don't mind distributing photocopies (the exceptions are illuminating, to me at least).

(For the record, when it comes to something this old, I myself have no ethical dilemma with it; I just thought the whole thing was kinda boneheaded.)

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mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:30 pm

With regard to age, I concur. I see no ethical dilemma. But having had many a conversation over the years in regard to copyright infringement, there has always been a strong stance in general on the forum against breaching copyright law.

The next question is, are these limited print run items, or are they made available unilaterally to all who have a research interest in D&D history? If there is to be only a limited quantity, the publishers and recipients are themselves creating something that they know is going to have considerable value, and are therefor breaching copyright law for personal gain. These are not items that will be passed freely around the community for research purposes, as you would distribute a research paper, but items that will be placed in collections and traded or sold at quite a price. These 'research copies' were created for a handful at a minimal cost and will be traded and sold for upwards of $100 in next to no time.

The hypocrisy is in the forum as a whole standing against copyright infringers who are outwith the community and making a profit from someone's IP, and keeping schtum about doing it within.

The feeling I get from the forum is that it is okay to distribute and sell pirate copies of modules under the guise of 'research', and yet we have Frank who stands most vehemently against our friend the unknown gamer who lives with a photocopy library. I question whether or not Frank would feel offended if we were selling 'research' copies of R4 pre-pubs, or whether Rob would feel similarly lenient if we were distributing photocopies of Kalibrun?

At least we now have a decent euphemism for illegal photocopies and have brought a little respectability to illegal distribution.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

MetaSigma
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:39 pm

This was always going to be the response. I can't conceive of a way in which it would benefit them to let someone reprint old material. If it's a small print run given away for free, why bother setting the precedent? If it's a big print run for profit, why enable possible competition?

Maybe if you offered them enough money as a licensing fee that it would serve to prop up their quarterlies a little, they'd be forced to think about it, but I doubt you're prepared to do that.

But like my wife always says, "Never hurts to ask." I'm amazed at the things she's gotten that never would have happened if she didn't have this philosophy.

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misterspock
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:44 pm

Honestly the response and the length of time in responding doesn't surprise me. As confounding as it may seem, you have to factor in at least a year if not a year and a half lead-time to make something like this happen, assuming they ok it all. There's a lot of bureaucratic flag poles that the request has to be run up. Whether you're willing to pay a license fee or not is irrelevant to them. Also, I think you need to get the ear of someone who's at least a VP. You might be get lucky with a Brand Manager, but hitting up a VP or higher would be the best bet...the shorter the flag pole, the better. Maybe at this year's Gen Con, you can approach an exec at the company and pitch the idea to them.

edit: as with the previous post, I doubt they would've seen it in their interest to allow this, even if you were buddies with someone high up at the company.

Last edited by misterspock on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:46 pm

In instances like this, I always find the personal touch at least gets companies to drop their guard. I'd go for phone calls over e-mails any day of the week if I wanted to progress my position in a business arrangement. I'd also look at presneting the correct 'image' in comparison to the size of the company you are dealing with. I have a similar issue appearing too small to appeal to the interests of large companies when I'm tendering huge jobs with multi-nationals in my field. They see me as a little guy. Maybe with others in the industry and a joint proposal with print quantities and an idea of how the proposal can be seen in relation to their current brand, you may get a more favourable response.

Bear in mind that the C21 reprints whilst printed in Italy, were done under the TSR name and were complimentary to the Anniversary product line they were planning for anyways.

WotC will be looking at your e-mail and asking themselves; "Is there any benefit to us?", "How much of our time and resource is this going to take?", they'd at the very least need to quantify their own legal expense, and "How does such a possibility affect and/or sit with our current product line?"

Having demonstrated to them that you're willing to break the law and distribute their IP illegaly, when they know you knew who you had to ask, and what the law was, you don't have a very strong position. As in all business, they will make moral assumptions about the people they contemplate doing business with.

Good luck, Doug.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

ExTSR
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:55 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:and yet we have Frank who stands most vehemently against our friend the unknown gamer

Vehement? Moi? You must be recalling my reactions to some of your past postings, Ian. And even then, you haven't seen me Vehement, merely irritated.

I question whether or not Frank would feel offended if we were selling 'research' copies of R4 pre-pubs

I haven't bought any of the Research/Digest copies of anything. (For one thing, I have originals, as do many other hardcore collectors.)
But I'm not arrogant enough to start sermonizing. Each of you must make your own decisions on any ethical/legal issues you may perceive.

And as to "R" series or anything else I wrote during my 81 months at TSR, it's not my property, it's theirs. So do as you will. Of course, if anyone tries to profit from selling things I *do* own, well, my righteous wrath will probably follow in due course.

To those beating the ethics/hypocrisy drum, please note this (and I suggest you adjust your aim accordingly): Neither Doug nor Mike has kept copies for resale later at higher prices. These items were available at the low stated price to benefit the convention, period. It's other folks who are buying some to reap the profits when the prices skyrocket.

F

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:06 pm

ExTSR wrote:Vehement? Moi? You must be recalling my reactions to some of your past postings, Ian. And even then, you haven't seen me Vehement, merely irritated.

LOL. No, it your response to our unknown friend's hoard of photocopies, and something about being ashamed that he even exists within the same hobby as us.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:12 pm

There is a great irony in business that once you reach a certain size, taking small amounts of money is not actaully worth the time or effort, even if to all intent and purpose that money is free.

I haven't quite got my head around it myself yet, but I see it all the time. I am surprised they bothered with Gnat's eBay listing mind you.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

faro
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:13 pm

Doug; I've already said this is potentially big trouble. Be thankful that the left hand doesn't appear to know what the right hand is doing.

Continuing these discussions with WotC will be like skating on thin ice since if they are aware that you have *already* produced these illegal copies - and Hilary appears not to be aware - they are *obliged* to defend their IPR. Given that the violation exceeds 10 copies/$2,500 in value, you are in felony territory; q.v. http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/113/2319.
I tried to get eBay to pull the auction before the value got that high, but they were too slow.

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faro
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:18 pm

ExTSR wrote:It's other folks who are buying some to reap the profits when the prices skyrocket.

Unfortunately that /is/ taken into consideration, since WotC can make the case that they could have, say, produced 300 official reprint copies at $40/50/xx each given those bids and proven interest - not just what the original price was in 1979. It does not matter that the illegal copies were given away free of charge.

"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

MetaSigma
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:25 pm

faro wrote:Doug; I've already said this is potentially big trouble. Be thankful that the left hand doesn't appear to know what the right hand is doing.

Continuing these discussions with WotC will be like skating on thin ice since if they are aware that you have *already* produced these illegal copies - and Hilary appears not to be aware - they are *obliged* to defend their IPR. Given that the violation exceeds 10 copies/$2,500 in value, you are in felony territory; q.v. http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/113/2319.
I tried to get eBay to pull the auction before the value got that high, but they were too slow.

Exactly. My concern would be that WotC won't bother wasting man-hours in their legal department, but simply make a quick call to the FBI, pointing them to the "confession" (this thread and the other). Letting it go and hoping they forget might be the wisest course at this juncture.

Ithaca Dragon
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