Classified latests? • Page 2 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

The Acaeum Forums • Collecting General

Classified latests?
	Page 2 of 3 • 1, 2, 3

Author

Traveller
Prolific Collector

Posts: 852
Joined: Jun 12, 2004
Last Visit: Jun 22, 2026

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:08 pm

<sarcasm>There is a Spelljammer set on ebay right now for $10.50. A terrible bargain. I should spend the $32.00 and get the one from this guy instead.</sarcasm>

Daydreamer dude, if you're reading this, please join the 21st Century. We thank you for wasting your time because it's given many of us a chuckle, and many more an eye roll.

Next time, do a little research on what you have, price it realistically and you might actually sell something.

The Gray Book: My homage to E.G.G.

Star Trek: Alpha Quadrant: The game Mongoose failed to make.

FormCritic
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6720
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:29 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:He's talking about the Cthulhu mythos, and the fact that people sell the offending hadback online.

If you're talking about the original Dieties and Demi-gods print run, TSR received (admitedly late) permission directly from the license holder company, Chaosium. They chose not to include the Cthulhu and Melnibonean mythos sections in later prints because TSR's owner at the time was worried about accusations of Satanism...and completely ignorant about the entire genre.

No, I believe that he is referring to people who buy and sell games that illegally use trademarked words such as "Hobbit" and "Ent". None of us would traffic in such items, right?

If you're talking about ents, hobbits and balrogs...that was an honest mistake that got corrected. Tolkien coined those names but made them sound like words from Old English. (In the case of "ent," ownership would be on shaky ground, since it is just an Old English variation on "ettin," meaning "giant." The use of "balrog" by Gygax would be less forgiveable.)

Tolkien's intellectual property only extended to the specific creatures and characters invented for his stories. TSR stopped using those words when the intellectual property infringement was pointed out. Tolkien himself was not above cribbing names and entire concepts from other authors without crediting them...William Blake, for instance. (The Germanic legend and literature he mined was, of course, public domain.)

Iron Crown Enterprises was also mistaken in believing they owned certain intellectual properties that were, in fact, public domain. The example that leaps to mind is ICE making a small fuss about "Balin the Dwarf" in an adventure published in DRAGON. All of the dwarven names in The Hobbit, along with the name "Gandalf," appear in the Elder Edda...specifically as dwarves...and were not Tolkien's exclusive property.

TSR was likewise mistaken in their belief that the word "drow" belonged to them.

But, I see that I have bitten on the Troll bait. :lol:

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

sauromatian
Sage Collector

Posts: 2554
Joined: Jul 25, 2007
Last Visit: Jan 06, 2024
Location: Far Harad, Texas

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:21 pm

Have you been following the Buzz Aldrin vs. Topps controversy of late? "Public domain" is a rapidly shrinking concept. Sure the dwarves' names appear in the Eddas, but anyone who reads them is probably reading a copyrighted translation. Additionally the Tolkien characters have been trademarked, limiting the context which could be defined as public domain. E.g., Green Giant brand vegetables use a character inspired by legend.

mbassoc2003
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:09 am

Why doesn't Bilbo over on Classifieds admit that he has a vested interest in promoting the new Dwarven Forge clone terain?

Pretending like he just fount the site and wanted to let us know where we could buy it online and on eBay is pure BS. Furthermore, it makes me distrust someone who thinks I'm that thick, and that buyers don't deserve honesty and integrity.

If the buyer doesn't deserve to be told the truth, and needs to be duped into looking at a new product through some sort of deception, that product must really be falling short in meeting market requirements and not be able to stand in the market on its own two feet.

To my mind, this guy is doing more damage than good to the product. And why would anyone consider spending the same money on something that competes with DF but doesn't have the expandability or range of DF.

If it can't beat it significantly on cost (25%+ cheaper) it'll be a dead product inside of a year or two. A nice calling and hobby for the guy who makes them, but a bad regretable purchase for someone who buys.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

benjoshua
Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3718
Joined: May 30, 2007
Last Visit: Aug 04, 2026
Location: USA Georgia

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:46 am

mbassoc2003 wrote:Why doesn't Bilbo over on Classifieds admit that he has a vested interest in promoting the new Dwarven Forge clone terain?

Pretending like he just fount the site and wanted to let us know where we could buy it online and on eBay is pure BS. Furthermore, it makes me distrust someone who thinks I'm that thick, and that buyers don't deserve honesty and integrity.

If the buyer doesn't deserve to be told the truth, and needs to be duped into looking at a new product through some sort of deception, that product must really be falling short in meeting market requirements and not be able to stand in the market on its own two feet.

To my mind, this guy is doing more damage than good to the product. And why would anyone consider spending the same money on something that competes with DF but doesn't have the expandability or range of DF.

If it can't beat it significantly on cost (25%+ cheaper) it'll be a dead product inside of a year or two. A nice calling and hobby for the guy who makes them, but a bad regretable purchase for someone who buys.

As soon as I saw the ad, I figured it was a self promotion, but I really didn't mind...for now. He may have been lazy and not read the rules/guidelines which plenty of people do, but whatever his excuse, I like his ambition and willingness to tell us about something we might like. I suspect your analysis is correct however in that he knew full well what he was doing.

The product doesn't interest me, but is clearly relevant to the Acaeum's broader interest. The product may not be as good as Dwarven Forge (I'm not familiar with either product), but I do appreciate competition and lower prices. While 25% cheaper may not be that much cheaper, it's cheaper. Hopefully, he'll expand his offering to make it as good as DF or better. I think your warning is a good thing to note, especially for people who are not aware of the DF product.

I guess what it comes down to for me is that, if someone has a really low post count, and that person is working hard, I'm willing to cut some slack. I also appreciate risk takers. And if he's smart, he'll learn that being deceptive in one area of your business (like advertising) will cause buyers to wonder if they are deceptive in other parts of their business.

Truth is worth finding and life is too short to work for money.

Gnat the Beggar
Grandstanding Collector
JG Valuation Board
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 5029
Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Last Visit: Jan 16, 2017
Location: Texas

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:32 am

Ben I think was not saying the product was not as good as DF, and unless he has purchased some of it, how the heck could he know?
I think he was asking why anyone would buy from them when the product line is so limited compared to DF.
Not that I agree with him... just pointing that out.

DF over the years has produced LOTS more product, however, they are (many times) limited releases and get retired...
Hence they are very hard to find at all, and once sold out... certainly not from DF.

"Guys, I am starting to think Tegel Manor might be haunted..."
Stated by me as a PC during a run of Tegel Manor DMed by killjoy at NTRPGCon 2010

Charter Member of the ATM

Badmike
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 8079
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jun 24, 2026
Location: DFW TX

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:38 am

FormCritic wrote:
If you're talking about the original Dieties and Demi-gods print run, TSR received (admitedly late) permission directly from the license holder company, Chaosium. They chose not to include the Cthulhu and Melnibonean mythos sections in later prints because TSR's owner at the time was worried about accusations of Satanism...and completely ignorant about the entire genre.

Also, they realized there was no percentage in basically giving free advertisement to a game company (Chaosium) with competing product (Call of Cthulhu, Elric RPG)

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

ExTSR
Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor
Valuation Board

Posts: 1945
Joined: May 01, 2004
Last Visit: Aug 06, 2026
Location: Almost Lake Geneva, WI

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:46 am

Badmike wrote:Also, they realized there was no percentage in basically giving free advertisement to a game company (Chaosium) with competing product (Call of Cthulhu, Elric RPG).

Sorry, FormCritic, yer off base and Mike's right on as usual.

The "owner at the time" to which you refer was a group of more than 30 shareholders plus the Employee Profit Sharing fund. Two of the top managers -- Brian & Kevin Blume -- were obsessive about Mike's point. They also wouldn't allow RPGA to cover other people's games. (That straighted out after they sold out to the PoG and left.)

FormCritic
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6720
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:19 am

ExTSR wrote:Sorry, FormCritic, yer off base and Mike's right on as usual.

The "owner at the time" to which you refer was a group of more than 30 shareholders plus the Employee Profit Sharing fund. Two of the top managers -- Brian & Kevin Blume -- were obsessive about Mike's point. They also wouldn't allow RPGA to cover other people's games. (That straighted out after they sold out to the PoG and left.)

Now there's an interesting piece of information. The other half of the story. Thanks, Frank.

I'm quoting Greg Stafford's perception...what he was told at the time. (Although Stafford did not say that the owner was a ninny. That was me.) Specifically, he was told TSR was afraid of the backlash. Of course, Stafford's memory might be wobbly on the timeline and details. He was answering idle questions, not giving a deposition.

Considering how much Cthulhu and Melnibone added to the value of Deities and Demi-gods (roughly half the value) I'm surprised the TSR people didn't hang onto it with all 60 hands.

In my view, the Blumes were right not to cover games from other companies. I could never understand why TSR covered any game other than D&D.

Frank: It would be interesting to know which games, other than D&D, TSR made money on or not.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

FormCritic
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6720
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:29 am

sauromatian wrote:Sure the dwarves' names appear in the Eddas, but anyone who reads them is probably reading a copyrighted translation. Additionally the Tolkien characters have been trademarked, limiting the context which could be defined as public domain. E.g., Green Giant brand vegetables use a character inspired by legend.

You're confusing quoting the text with using a name. Specifically, the name "Balin" is untranslated. (Mind you...I'm not planning to name a character Balin.)

Does Disney own the name Hercules? Did they seek out a translator and pay him to use the name or story in a movie? Seamus Heany owns the right to his specific translation of Beowulf, but he does not own the name or any part of the story.

A good example would be Tolkien's ownership of the word "orc." He didn't own it...but no one expected Tolkien to pay William Blake (who used it as a character's name), or any of the French and Italian writers who used it before him, nor do the people of the Orkney Islands have a claim against Tolkien.

The Tolkien estate owns the character from The Hobbit. They don't own the name any more than they might own...for instance....Zeus or Apollo. But, of course, their ownership extends as far as any given court is willing to extend it...such as the incorrect ruling that the IOC owns the word "Olympics."

TSR owns the concept of the drow race as black-skinned, silver-haired underworld porn stars. They don't own the word "drow."

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

ExTSR
Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor
Valuation Board

Posts: 1945
Joined: May 01, 2004
Last Visit: Aug 06, 2026
Location: Almost Lake Geneva, WI

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:37 am

FormCritic wrote:In my view, the Blumes were right not to cover games from other companies. I could never understand why TSR covered any game other than D&D.

Disagree (but politely ;> ). One of the more subtle and lesser purposes of the RPGA I created was to maximize our membership revenue from folks who didn't even like TSR or its games.

That strategy also makes friends in the industry, providing a unifying force and raising the tide to lift all boats... while putting you in the controlling position thereof.

Everybody self-promotes. Somone who can break out of that mold stands out, oft above the rest.

And you'll see more of this from EE I hope. Remains to be seen.

FormCritic
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6720
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:19 am

I was thinking as a player.

As a player, I found content for other games....particularly super hero or science fiction games...in DRAGON or DUNGEON to be highly annoying. I felt cheated of my gaming dollar.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

sauromatian
Sage Collector

Posts: 2554
Joined: Jul 25, 2007
Last Visit: Jan 06, 2024
Location: Far Harad, Texas

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:43 am

FormCritic wrote:You're confusing

If I'm not confusing you, then I'm not doing my job. I agree with your statements above 100%, however intellectual property law is something in constant flux. The last few decades have seen many well-established/well-laywered businesses go under because they thought they were in the clear, but the advance of more restrictive legal interpretations did them in.

Regarding Balin the dwarf, it's important to note that names undergo translation too. The dwarfs of the Eddas have first of all been changed to Tolkien's spelling "dwarves": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_dwarves

Here's a page (in German, but presented as a list) which shows some of the changes: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvergatal
Which one is Balin? Is it "Billingr"? I can't even tell. Here's a discussion (in French) of the changes to Balin's name, with a comment that Google translates as "Do not forget that Tolkien himself was slightly anglicized names Norse dwarves for example Dvalin becomes Dwalin."
http://www.jrrvf.com/forum/noncgi/Forum ... 01142.html

It looks like "Balin of the Dwarves" is a phrase containing several of Tolkien's creative choices (maybe Sir Balin of Arthurian legend had some influence as well).

In other words, we may try to stay on the side of the righteous, but all it takes is an opportunistic, ambulance-chasing lawyer to change the rules of the game. What good does it do to call the Olympics decision "incorrect"? They've got the money to control the courts, we do not. Since capitalism is the only true path, it befalls us peasants to bow down before our betters. Excuse me, I now must go sacrifice a dove to Ayn Rand.

copycat
Sage Collector

Posts: 2736
Joined: May 31, 2007
Last Visit: Jul 09, 2026

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:06 pm

ExTSR wrote:Disagree (but politely ;> ). One of the more subtle and lesser purposes of the RPGA I created was to maximize our membership revenue from folks who didn't even like TSR or its games.

That strategy also makes friends in the industry, providing a unifying force and raising the tide to lift all boats... while putting you in the controlling position thereof.

Everybody self-promotes. Somone who can break out of that mold stands out, oft above the rest.

And you'll see more of this from EE I hope. Remains to be seen.

I have tried to explain this reasoning to others before, when it comes to fan-driven material, such as the relaunch of the Castles and Crusades Society... but, it usually backfires and people get clustered into what they individually like, rather than looking at it from other eyes. Oh well. At least I can think there is hope.

Those who can, don't. Those who should not, do.

mbassoc2003
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:47 pm

Re. Bilbo and his wee rooms....

I just think there's something inherently dishonest abouit 'pretending' you'd just come across something, and just also happened to come across this website and thought he's put the two in contact. The product may be fine, but the promotor (Bilbo) is being deceitful, and on that basis, is projecting that deceit onto the product and it's owner (maybe he's the owner and he's lying in his post, or maybe he's the owner's friend or brother, who knows).

I won't buy from someone who will lie so blatantly to get my money, and I'd much prefer to see the occasional honest plug from publishers like LotFP who have a genuine honest interest in offering us value, than AHs like this who prefer to trat us like we're dense.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

FormCritic
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6720
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:01 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:Re. Bilbo and his wee rooms....

I just think there's something inherently dishonest abouit 'pretending' you'd just come across something, and just also happened to come across this website and thought he's put the two in contact.

.....treat us like we're dense.

I thought the same thing.

A better approach would have been to introduce himself and say, "Hey guys. I am hawking my new miniatures terrain line!"

Most of us like dealing with people we know. We like writers and manufacturers we have met online. He would have gotten a lot better response.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

bbarsh
Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3865
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Last Visit: Jul 20, 2023
Location: Milford, Michigan

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:02 pm

FormCritic wrote:
I thought the same thing.

Ditto.

But I have to say, the product does look good. The price seems equally good. But I am not a miniatures collector, though I may have to actually get some of those sets.

And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

New modules for your Old School game http://pacesettergames.com/

Everything Pacesetter at http://pacesettergames.blog.com/

mbassoc2003
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:09 pm

Clearly they don't like honesty.
That makes me wonder how much more of the website and 'image' is just as dishonest.

I like it when Centrestage etc. post ad's for their new minis, and when I see something I like, I like to buy what I can afford.

Lying to get a sale just rubs me up the wrong way.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

The Acaeum Forums • Collecting General

Page 2 of 3 • 1, 2, 3