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What was the very first retro clone game?
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PapersAndPaychecks
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Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:40 pm 
 

The way I understand it, the defining features of a retro-clone are:-

1) Intention to emulate a specific, out of print edition without infringing copyright;
2) Free in .pdf form; and
3) Licenced in such a way that anyone can publish for the system without paying royalties or asking the author's permission.

Why are the second two important?  Because if it's a true retro-clone, the nominal publisher doesn't feel they "own" the system, and so offers it for free and takes no control over what content is written for it.

If the publisher is trying to own the system, control what's written from it and take profits, then surely it's clear they view the system as their property and their creation.

Thus neither Hackmaster nor C&C qualify.
  

sauromatian
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Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:43 pm 
 

PapersAndPaychecks wrote: Free in .pdf form



If you're trying to evoke old-school design, wouldn't a mimeograph work better than digital form?
  

Sardan
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Post Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:52 am 
 

robertsconley wrote:
There are a lot of people who enjoyed Hackmaster 4th ed. Many who played it straight as a continuation of AD&D. But none of the current efforts in retro clone can be traced directly back to Hackmaster and Kenzer Co.


I don't think I made myself clear.  I accept that Hackmaster is not a retro clone but I think the existence of Hackmaster added to the interest in old skool games, the old School rennaisance as some have called it, and therefore I do not think it can be ignored.  Also the fact that mechanically it is AD&D is important OGL or not it meant that AD&D was back in print, in a form, for the first time in years.
  

Mythmere1
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Post Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:28 am 
 

Sardan wrote:
I don't think I made myself clear.  I accept that Hackmaster is not a retro clone but I think the existence of Hackmaster added to the interest in old skool games, the old School rennaisance as some have called it, and therefore I do not think it can be ignored.  Also the fact that mechanically it is AD&D is important OGL or not it meant that AD&D was back in print, in a form, for the first time in years.


Munchkin is a retro game for Hackmaster.  :D
  

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ExTSR
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Post Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:36 am 
 

I don't call 'em clones because they're not. They can't be, for legal reasons.

I also take issue with 'retro' since it's so subjective and often partial... game x is part retro part new.
C&C is the best example there, using an ascending AC system (ala D&D3, 3.5, 4).

Hack is 1e-odd, a parody that became a realgame. Hard to categorize, one-of-a-kind.

My view of RPSims (those that rewrite but reproduce OOP FRP game systems) is:

2006        BFRPG (Gonnerman) and OSRIC (Finch, Marshall)
2007        Labyrinth Lord (Proctor)
2008        Swords & Wizardry (Finch)
2009        MicroLite (Drebitko) and Spellcraft & Swordplay (Vey)
2010        Dark Dungeons ("Blacky")

("Blacky the Blackball" seems paranoid about the legal stuff; I have a real firstname but no last name.)

There are various non-fantasy as well, notably by Proctor.

Any corrections? Any additions?
  

robertsconley
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Post Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:09 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote:I don't call 'em clones because they're not. They can't be, for legal reasons.


Sometimes we don't get to pick the name people call things. Many have issues with Old School Renaissance as well.

The good news from my point of view is that the various "Brands" are doing good establishing themselves so if a publishers is targeting specific rulesets they get to avoid the issue altogether if they choose too.


Sardan wrote:I don't think I made myself clear.  I accept that Hackmaster is not a retro clone but I think the existence of Hackmaster added to the interest in old skool games, the old School rennaisance as some have called it, and therefore I do not think it can be ignored.  


I see your point. My position come from my observation that there are way more C&C players (either ex or current) involved in the OSR than there are Hackmaster (again ex or current).  This, that it is a parody, and made under a one of a kind license.  I admit I see only a certain slice so the true picture could be different and other folks (like yourself) have a different experience.

One other thing you may want to mention is the release of the TSR back catalog in PDF. When they were available it served as an introduction into the OSR for many players. This is was especially true for Original D&D because of the high prices of the original rule books.
  
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