It is sad but true that the voice of those who have experienced problems with a company are often louder and more prevelant than those who have had good service. I have never had a problem with Hewlett Packard or Dell or Sony, and have been using and installing thier products for decades now. But I am sure that there are forums and threads full of people who are very vociferous about their complaints with those companies.

And this very board plays host to an ongoing thread lambasting and repremanding the dealings of Cougie, one of the UK's largest eBay resellers. I for one have never had an issue with same.

I have had experiences with T&T, and also with Titan and Tonya, all of which were fairly unpleasant and left me either out of pocket or without product. So I will bang the drum about how bad I find these companies to be.

Maybe that makes my position there clearer.

Now, in regard to the GenCon auctions, there are only two real questions as I see it.

The first is whether or not the T&T are capable and have the expertise to do the job justice, and I think the universal consensus there is either 'no' or 'wait and see'. I don't see anyone here willing to say that they think T&T do have the ability to do the job justice, and if Frank is willing to say so, then maybe Frank is doing himself a grave injustice there. It is Franks ability that T&T is being compared to.

The second is whether The Partnership should have chosen T&T to run the auctions. Of course, maybe they had no choice, and if they were the only game in town and it were a choice between auctions or no auctions then they made the correct decision. But, whether it is a question or an accusation, T&T has an online image of putting their own profit above the interests of their customers. Whether that image is true of 20% or 10% or 0.1% of customers, it is the image that is reported on forums such as this, and has been reported that way for years.

Would a UK GenCon be wise to select Cougie are the selected dealer to profit from their auctions? Maybe, maybe not. I am sure there are many here who would debate and lambast such a decision if it were ever made.

Final note for Frank - You misread my posts. I did not accuse you of being dishonest, fraudulent, or a thief. That was what you accused me of calling you. I doubt there is anyone here who thinks badly of you or the service you have brought to our hobby over your lifetime. I continue to enjoy the way you string words together, and my point when I posted it was that I was somewhat shocked that you misread my post so badly. I may have an issue with T&Ts reputation and online dealings, but that has no bearing on you or your tenure as the face of the GenCon auctions. You will be sorely missed in that capacity.

Ak'Ptui wrote:In this thread someone(s) keeps asking if T&T are making money off the back of charity or if they are somehow double dipping in their roles as auctioneer and seller.  It has been explained over & over what the auction situation is by people who are there, yet these questions keep getting repeated, and in a public forum.  Sounds like people are being called dishonest to me.

Quiesions keep being asked over and over again because some of the 'answers' are ambiguous or evasive. I for one am still trying to get a handle on things.

If I have a manuscript I want to donate to the charity auction, can I donate that for free, or do I have to pay to have it entered in the auction? My understanding is that it is free.

If I want to buy an item from the charity auction can I bid on it for free or do I have to pay for that right to bid? My understanding is I have to pay.

If I pay to bid in the charity auction, does that money go to charity, or does it go into someone elses pocket? My understanding is that it goes into someone elses pocket.

Does the final bid price goes completely to charity? I am assuming that it does.

Are those three things correct?

Badmike wrote:Its an absolute non-sequiter, and doesn't make a bit of sense.  Why not compare the prices at Gencon with the prices at Origins?  That would seem more of a balanced comparison.

I think it would be valid to throw Origins values in the mix as well - got any data (I can't find any)?  But to not use Ebay as a baseline is utterly ridiculous.  Ebay is essentially what everyone uses to set a value for an item - its mainly what The Acaeum Valuation Board uses (do they even use GenCon Auction data?), its what most resellers use, its what I use when I price things and its probably what you use too to price items for sale.  So how can you not use it to compare?

Badmike wrote:How about Frank, Tim, Josh and the rest don't show up for next year's Gen Con and the cast of "High School Musical" auction the rares?

You miss my thought here.  I will give you a coolness factor and entertainment value for Frank, Tim, Josh (although I don't know who Josh is - sorry Josh), etc and I hope they continuing doing GenCon for years to come so I will eventually see them do their thing.  But I personally don't think they significantly raise the final sale price just by being who they are.  I have said that someone who is competent could get basically the same price.  By this I mean someone who can identify the item and print if need be.  I think most people here would be fairly good at doing that for D&D type items but I wouldn't consider many of them as "expert" as say Frank or Tim.  It is someone else who was suggesting a potty trained talking lemur could do just as well (I suppose that too would have a certain amount of entertainment value too).

I have heard a lot of people say that "you haven't been there and you don't know what you are talking about".  So far I haven't heard anyone come out and say "I bought this item and paid $X when I really only wanted to spend $Y because Frank was the auctioneer".  And honestly, I don't think many people here could go and say anything like that with conviction because, there are more important factors that influenced their bid amount other than who the auctioneer is.

Most people, whether they choose to buy from Ebay or not, know a general going rate for items on Ebay - particularly for rare items.  Most items at GenCon sell for less than they would on Ebay and a lot less than most retaillers would sell them for - just look at the numbers.  If someone seriously has the intent of buying say a 2nd print woodgrain set from GenCon, they probably have an idea that one is poor condition will run about $600+, a very good or excellent one would be around $1800 and one that is mint could go for $2500+.  That's a pretty big purchase and not something the auctioneer is generally going to talk you into buying.  At GenCon, the 2nd print woodgrain sold for $1250.  Do you think they guy left saying "Gee, Frank sure talked me into spending more on that item."?  No way. The guy is walking away saying "I just got a 2nd print woodgrain for $1250 when it would probably sell for $1800 on Ebay".
In some cases, I can also see people willing to pay a bit extra for the convenient, no Ebay hassle, no paying for shipping & insurance, no dealing with a jerk of a seller.

I personally think these factors are much more significant than the fact the auctioneer is an industry personality.

The musing about comparing GenCon prices and Ebay prices is just part of the argument that most people who buy stuff there (particularly rares) know they are getting a deal and that in my opinion is a much more significant factor than the "expert auctioneer" convinced me to bid up an item.

We could ask the Burntwire Bros how they feel about their Commemorative Dragon purchase - paid more for it than they wanted because Frank convinced them too?  or walked away thinking they got a great deal.  Personally I think they stole that piece.  If you guys have any remorse on the purchase, I would happily fork over $500 for it (making it my single most expensive purchase by almost double the current mark).  I'm sure they also realize that if they wanted to sell the piece down the line, they won't have much trouble at least doubling their money.  I would wager that it wouldn't be hard to find someone who would be willing to pay $1K for it today - Pipswich comes to mind.

Badmike wrote:What is the farking point in this anyway?

I think the point is that T&T wants your money.

lawrenson wrote:He picked up the monster manual, and actually threw it back across the table at the Missus, saying "whats that?"

She asked "what?" and he replied "do you see ANY games workshop stuff?? Its all wrong"

She eventually had to open the books to prove who they were printed by.

I don't mind the ignorance, but the rudeness was a bit much...

What a Piece of $h!t.  I think I would have taken that book and made him eat it.

Malc, I'm pretty sure this rude person was not an ex-TSR person; to my knowledge, there were only three of us there: Frank, Harold Johnson and me. Now if there was some grunt who once worked in a warehouse, I don't know. We know it wasn't Frank or I as we both know your missus, and Harold is just way too nice a guy for me to picture him doing something such as you describe, besides the fact that he was so tied up in the Store that I doubt he spent much time on Intake.

Using eBay as a baseline is not accurate if you get away from D&D stuff. I am a big collector of another type of "big boy's toy", and have been for some years. I have bought and sold. Three years ago, the values that my stuff (alright, I'll admit that I race and collect Ideal HO scale slotless racecars) were evincing, based on what they were selling for, was three or perhaps four times what it is right now. There are several hundred of us in a Yahoo group and we share information, tips, tricks, sources and such, and we also bid agasinst each other fiercely. Even though I have several hundred, there are still a few I do not have because guys in Europe with deeper pockets than mine want them more, and already have the ones I have multiples of, so no trade bait.

My point in this is that specialty collectors such as Acaeum or my Yahoo group (of which I am one of three moderators), can and do artificially drive prices by competing against each other. When I see a car I don't have, I'll place one bid (showing how high I'll go), and that's it. I do not raise my maximum bid. Studying bid histories I see that I am in a minority in that field. If my bid triggers someone else's to jump and I am immediately outbid at my highest, I just sigh wistfully and hope that particular car comes up again. Now, if my pockets were deeper, that would be a different story. I might go a ludicrous amount just to beat someone that routinely beats me. Does that ludicrous price I paid for personal spite make it a fair market value? I think FMV is what something goes for consistently, or can be reasonably expected to go for, IN THAT MARKET.

I have seen; no, I have caused people to go over the amount they first set for themselves, when I can tease/goad them into that, on several occasions. (My Twinkies can be deadly) That is some of what Frank and I do. In years past, I have auctioned other things at other times; figures and boardgames for two. I have wheedled and manipulated (shamelssly, I might add) people into staying in the bidding and drove the price up. To the benefit of the seller. At any auction you go to you expect to lose a cut of your pie; I do my best to see that your pie was bigger before you paid that slice.

There is no charge to donate an item to the Auction for Charity.
100% of the selling price goes to the charity. Since the 2007 Auction, The Partnership (which is T&T and Bruce Carson; Jon from T&T was more visible this year whereas Bruce is always there if you know who to look for) has allowed me to auction one or two items for my service organization, fishing has no boundaries; I have received every penny because to do anything else would open The Partnership to more grief and legal bullshit than you could possibly imagine. Indiana is really tough on anyone claiming a charity connection and not being 100% upfront and transparent; the Federal grief would be a shitstorm of fearsome intensity.

To suggest, whether overtly or by repeatedly insinuating, anything else is provocative, misguided and just plain baseless.

I have yet to troll the halls at GenCon with a weapon and forced anyone to put a game into the Auction. If you don't think you'll get enough, either don't enter it or do so with a Reserve that you think is fair. If it doesn't sell, you're only out a couple of bucks.

As buyers, I can't see why anyone would get his panties all wadded up about a good deal. My father made a very nice side income trolling auctions for antiques at good prices and selling them for more. Is there something wrong with that? Did I miss something? (Ooops! Epiphany! Just go buy but don't sell; aha...)

If you don't care for the GenCon auction, don't participate. As a former convention organizer, I can state that auctions are a pain in the ass; they could double the cut they take and it would not often justify the auction.

Mars wrote:
I have said that someone who is competent could get basically the same price.  By this I mean someone who can identify the item and print if need be.  I think most people here would be fairly good at doing that for D&D type items but I wouldn't consider many of them as "expert" as say Frank or Tim.  

I agree to an extent Mark, but remember, most people around these parts are EXACTLY the type that would know more than the average bear...we are not the baseline auctioneer, we are freaks of the genre (like Frank, except also add Frank has done about 30 years of these on top of it).  I have no doubt if the entire auction staff was peopled with Acaeum celebs it would kick ass, except for the fact we would be holding up the auctioning to check out the items all the time!  Lets just say the average auctioneer while competent is not at the Aceaum level of game knowledge.

Mike B.

deimos3428 wrote:Yes, they certainly do.  But they also avoid having any interest on the bidding side of the transaction.  eBay doesn't hire employees to log in and bid up the items.  Capitalism isn't the issue.

I thought this was a great point & haven't seen anybody address it.

Would anyone have a problem if Ebay themselves suddenly started bidding on every auction that they host?

Edit:
Or how about just a selection of auctions that they thought were going to sell under value?

deimos3428 wrote:'Til somebody can explain the @$#!ing 3rd print of the DMG, I think you're giving us all way too much credit, Mike.

Yes!  And there is the texture and green-ness factor of early PHB's to master as well!

Any conflict of interest, whether disclosed or undisclosed, whether approved by the paying/organising body or not, is still a conflict of interest. I fail to see how anyone cannot see this as corrupt. Even if it is all approved and authorized and no-one is doing anything wrong in the eyes of the law, it is still morally reprehensible for the company running the auctions to be bidding on them too.

Now I see the financial benefits to T&T and I applaud their maneuvering to get themselves into that position, and I have no issue with any company exploiting whatever financial breaks they get. The sellers also win if it pushes up prices, but it is damagng in the long run as people make the link between T&Ts online image and Gencon, and people as buyers realise they are bidding against the auctioneering company on the majority of items.

I have no idea if America considers things like this acceptable. From what Frank has said, everything is perfectly normal and totally legitimate, and I have no reason to doubt him. In the UK this would not be accepted. I guess it's a difference in cultural morals and values. That's why us foreigners find it questionable, and the Gencon voices here do not.