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They just don't get it, do they?
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Badmike
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:18 am

deimos3428 wrote:Sorry, can't agree with you there. IMO, the 2E dragons are stupidly powerful. May as well just drop the stats entirely, and put a sign reading "plot device" over their heads.

I'll agree with you...dragons are, and should be, stupidly powerful. Not giant lizards with a breath weapon. Befitting their nature, and a game called "Dungeons & DRAGONS!

When DMs have to fiddle and faddle and trap and trick and fudge just to make a monster "powerful", they are really not powerful. Just make them bad ass to begin with and you won't have the problem in the end.

A dragon should be a once or twice a campaign encounter...and it shouldn't be something a party enters into lightly.

Mike B.

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Cattledog
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:59 am

killjoy32 wrote:
1. 1e dragons are not too easy. they are prb only that way because a DM doesnt utilise what they have properly. if a party of PCs ever meets one of MY dragons....god help them, for me, they are amongst the elite monsters that you would prb meet on a very rare occasion - mostly if you were stupid enough.

2. nothing wrong with a dragon in a random encounter. after all there HAS to be a chance you might see one? but i always utilise it as an opportunity for something to happen or nudge the party in a direction i want etc.

Al

My players hate me because I always use the full affects and abilities of monsters. I agree that they are rare but a decent party (my players are very good and experienced) and a good run of rolls usually defeat well ordered dragons with out serious casulties. One of my 1e groups were dragon hunters.

It depends considerably on how one runs random encounters. Are they truly random or ordered? Seeing one vs. encountering one can vary too. In all my years, my low level players have seen several dragons but never really encountered them. Perhaps its a defintional question.

Hmm, no, I don't have a gambling problem, I'm winning, and winning is not a problem. That's like saying Michael Jordan has a basketball problem, or Def Leppard has an awesomeness problem. So why don't y'all pour some sugar on that?

Traveller
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:17 pm

Badmike wrote:What you are saying is "1E dragons aren't really very tough, so what you need are some encounters to basically knock the party down a little before they get to the main lair". Or...JUST MAKE THE DANG DRAGONS NASTIER IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!

I think everyone, players and creators alike, realized how silly it had become when every year a Dragon magazine article would pop up with the inevitable title "How to Make Dragons more Powerful". It was a problem that everyone saw, but no one did anything about until 2E.

The saying "If it aint broke, don't fix it"? This was broke, and it was fixed. 2E can be dissed for a lot of things, but not for making dragons and giants much deadlier opponents.

Mike B.

In AD&D I would agree that there is a problem with the dragons.

As most of us know, AD&D was a rewrite and expansion of OD&D, and we also know that the Monster Manual was the first hardcover released. However, most of the monsters still betray their OD&D roots, especially the dragons. This is telling in the example Badmike gives. I would say the dragons were correctly powered in OD&D, and I would also say underpowered in AD&D. The reason I say that is threefold:

OD&D had attributes generated using straight 3d6 in order. This gives an average score of 10.5, rounded up to 11, and there was no mixing or matching of scores to get the best result. In AD&D, if using 4d6 drop the lowest, the average increases by a point, to 12. Not a significant difference, except with the ability to place scores in whatever order desired, the added die and the ability to drop the lowest die roll in each attribute made it easier to achieve bonuses. In OD&D, the average fighter with average constitution and strength isn't likely to get bonuses. Bonuses are RARE in OD&D, and not so rare in AD&D.
OD&D fighters had d8 hit dice per level. The average hit points for an average 9th level fighter in OD&D is 41. In AD&D that same fighter would have an average of 50 hit points because of the increase in hit die to d10. AD&D dragons didn't change their hit dice in the switch from OD&D to AD&D, although the intention was to fix this.
OD&D fighters do not earn multiple attacks at specific levels, leaving haste as the only option for multiple attacks, and all that baggage that goes along with it (system shock roll). AD&D fighters as a class ability earn multiple attacks at a couple level breakpoints. At 7th or 8th level, depending on subclass, fighters earn 3 attacks every two rounds. At 13th and 15th level, it's two attacks a round. Dragons didn't get additional attacks, being stuck with a claw/claw/bite routine or dragon breath, whichever one the dragon used being randomly determined.

AD&D, for all the wonderful things it did for the game as a whole, made it easier for the PC to compete against the dragon, because the dragon wasn't "ramped up" to compensate for the slew of changes made to the fighter. The fighter has better chances of getting bonuses for high ability scores, has more hit points, and more attacks, while the dragon was left behind. While increased hit dice for dragons would have helped*, that only solves one of the three problems dragons face in a 1st Edition environment. 2d Edition dragons solve all three things I highlight above, and I recommend replacing 1st Edition dragons with 2d Edition versions.

*In my personal version of the OD&D rules, dragons have d20 hit dice making them even nastier than the norm, especially as fighters neither have d10 hit dice, nor multiple attacks.

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killjoy32
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:28 pm

Cattledog wrote:
My players hate me because I always use the full affects and abilities of monsters. I agree that they are rare but a decent party (my players are very good and experienced) and a good run of rolls usually defeat well ordered dragons with out serious casulties. One of my 1e groups were dragon hunters.

It depends considerably on how one runs random encounters. Are they truly random or ordered? Seeing one vs. encountering one can vary too. In all my years, my low level players have seen several dragons but never really encountered them. Perhaps its a defintional question.

CD: there are plenty of ways to make a situation what you want, regardless of how good/great/experienced the players are.

i've never had that problem i have to say, i make the monsters as easy/hard as i need to at the relevant time

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Cattledog
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm

CD: there are plenty of ways to make a situation what you want, regardless of how good/great/experienced the players are.

i've never had that problem i have to say, i make the monsters as easy/hard as i need to at the relevant time

I've had plenty of weaker creatures prove to be far tougher than numbers say and run thousands of encounters but sometimes a weak dragons is just a weak dragon.

killjoy32
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:33 pm

Cattledog wrote:
I've had plenty of weaker creatures prove to be far tougher than numbers say and run thousands of encounters but sometimes a weak dragons is just a weak dragon.

well no dragon of mine has ever been weak

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FormCritic
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:39 pm

JohnGaunt wrote:Two 4E rumors that I probably got from the ENWorld main page. It's early, and I'm lazy, so they aren't direct quotes:

(1) PC Levels 21-30 are for super-duper, high-level, plane-changing encounters. Doesn't this imply that the individual PCs will be mean and godlike?

(2) Orcus is pictured on the front of the 4E Monster Manual . . . ummm . . . isn't he some big badass god that the PCs aren't going to face, ever? What is he doing on the front of the 4E MM?

Good questions.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

Badmike
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:55 pm

Traveller wrote:In AD&D I would agree that there is a problem with the dragons.

As most of us know, AD&D was a rewrite and expansion of OD&D, and we also know that the Monster Manual was the first hardcover released. However, most of the monsters still betray their OD&D roots, especially the dragons. This is telling in the example Badmike gives. I would say the dragons were correctly powered in OD&D, and I would also say underpowered in AD&D. The reason I say that is threefold:

OD&D had attributes generated using straight 3d6 in order. This gives an average score of 10.5, rounded up to 11, and there was no mixing or matching of scores to get the best result. In AD&D, if using 4d6 drop the lowest, the average increases by a point, to 12. Not a significant difference, except with the ability to place scores in whatever order desired, the added die and the ability to drop the lowest die roll in each attribute made it easier to achieve bonuses. In OD&D, the average fighter with average constitution and strength isn't likely to get bonuses. Bonuses are RARE in OD&D, and not so rare in AD&D.
OD&D fighters had d8 hit dice per level. The average hit points for an average 9th level fighter in OD&D is 41. In AD&D that same fighter would have an average of 50 hit points because of the increase in hit die to d10. AD&D dragons didn't change their hit dice in the switch from OD&D to AD&D, although the intention was to fix this.
OD&D fighters do not earn multiple attacks at specific levels, leaving haste as the only option for multiple attacks, and all that baggage that goes along with it (system shock roll). AD&D fighters as a class ability earn multiple attacks at a couple level breakpoints. At 7th or 8th level, depending on subclass, fighters earn 3 attacks every two rounds. At 13th and 15th level, it's two attacks a round. Dragons didn't get additional attacks, being stuck with a claw/claw/bite routine or dragon breath, whichever one the dragon used being randomly determined.
AD&D, for all the wonderful things it did for the game as a whole, made it easier for the PC to compete against the dragon, because the dragon wasn't "ramped up" to compensate for the slew of changes made to the fighter. The fighter has better chances of getting bonuses for high ability scores, has more hit points, and more attacks, while the dragon was left behind. While increased hit dice for dragons would have helped*, that only solves one of the three problems dragons face in a 1st Edition environment. 2d Edition dragons solve all three things I highlight above, and I recommend replacing 1st Edition dragons with 2d Edition versions.

*In my personal version of the OD&D rules, dragons have d20 hit dice making them even nastier than the norm, especially as fighters neither have d10 hit dice, nor multiple attacks.

A lot of interesting points here. I have to admit I never considered the OD&D roots but this makes a lot of sense, not just with dragons but many other underpowered monsters (giants, even demons and devils in some instances, etc). Against OD&D characters the AD&D monsters would be quite deadly and challenging; due to the bonuses in AD&D they are less so as noted.

Although the 2E dragons may seem overpowered to some, if you look at the various Dragon magazine articles published over the years, it looks like the powers that be merely took a lot of the suggestions in those articles and made them official, basically houseruling the 1E dragon up to 2E toughness. In particular, the extra attacks such as tail slap, kicks to the rear, wing buffet, plummet, and others I seem to remember being taken almost verbatim from Dragon magazine articles.

I know in my campaigns I used a lot of Dragon magazine article suggestions to toughen up dragons quite severely to make them much more threatening against 1E high level adventurers.

Mike B.

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Badmike
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:57 pm

FormCritic wrote:
Good questions.

So, basically, the Immortals rules updated???

Mike B.

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Cattledog
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:35 am

killjoy32 wrote:

well no dragon of mine has ever been weak

Al

And ultimately that is the most important thing.

JohnGaunt
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:32 am

Badmike wrote:So, basically, the Immortals rules updated???

From the ENWorld 4e page ( http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e )

"The cover depicts Orcus, and Scott Rouse confirmed that the encounter range within the book would run from 1st-30th level. Orcus is one of the critters in the MM."

"Levels run from 1-30; these levels attempt to capture the feel of the "sweet range" of 3E, which is levels 7-14.
1-10 Heroic: foes are orcs and ogres, some giants, small dragons. Adventures tend to be local.
11 - 20 Paragon: on par with the current low to mid teens right now. Bigger threats are faced that might threaten a kingdom.
21 - 30 Epic: world or planar threats."

As an aside, I was hungry last night and looked up the Bacon, Egg, Flying Egg, Toast, Burnt Toast, and other food-based monsters in Field Guide to Encounters. In a demonstration of synchronicity, the FGtE rules basically state that Level 20 PCs can become gods. Will 4e be the D&D Immortals rules updated? No, 4e will be the FGtE rules!

killjoy32
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:16 am

i cant be doing with this "godlike" lark

sheesh

all this heroic, paragon and epic stuff just kinda makes me want to sigh and shake my head.

just doesnt do anything for me man.....but i hope its something that will encourage ppl into the gaming community, rather than scare them off into something else!

Al

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copycat
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:28 am

Let's not forget that, by age 15, the PC is expected to be level 45. Anyone older than that should be either level
** expired/removed eBay auction **
or level 0. There is no middle ground.

Those who can, don't. Those who should not, do.

killjoy32
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:45 am

serleran wrote:Let's not forget that, by age 15, the PC is expected to be level 45. Anyone older than that should be either level
** expired/removed eBay auction **
or level 0. There is no middle ground.

by age 15??!!!! er what?

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Cushionsnbeans
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:55 am

My PCs must be pre-school

copycat
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:04 pm

Have you never watched any anime or played any console RPG from Japan? Ever? All main characters (ie, the PCs) are young, usually just-teenagers (or slightly younger) and those older, (ie, the NPCs) are either so badass powerful that you can't mess with them, or they are just useless. There is never any other way... its one or the other. This means the age chart for D&D4 stops at 20; who would want to play an old fogey? Not me, damnit. Don't you know that only kids have the l33t powerz to save the universe?

Those who can, don't. Those who should not, do.

killjoy32
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:20 pm

oh man that just simply sucks eggs bit-time.

i always (well in my games anyway), imagine like 25th level human characters to be like 40-60 yrs old. their adventuring having crossed the expanse of years. realistically, you cant really have one adventure after another, as the body wouldnt feckin take it!

ah well what do i know

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gyg
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:52 pm

killjoy32 wrote:ah well what do i know

Al

You know how to irritate people with rodents of unusual size - which means you must know a LOT :lol:

You can never have too much of something you didn't need in the first place.

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