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Ebay policy changes
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killjoy32
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:53 pm

bus, i note everything you say.

however. i am NOT a professional ebayer - not by a long long shot, but i sell reasonably often. i like to think i give a good service. everyone who deals with me will vouch for that and whatever i say, i mean and back it up. if i say i sent it, i did just that etc etc.

however, despite the extra yard i ALWAYS go to, to try and make things good for the buyer, i still always get the odd few who ruin everything.

this new system plays right into their hands and there is not a thing i can do about it. is that fair? not at all.

Al

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intelligator
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:01 pm

Busman wrote:It's been a two way street for 8 years now. Sellers, especially large ones, dominate small buyers and small sellers. What is one bad feedback on someone with 3000 feedbacks versus someone who has 30 or 40 feedbacks and just wants to get through a sale without being threatened?

I've personally never had a bad experience yet on Ebay, but then I've purchased so few things I don't count. My wife, however, has maybe 10 times as many purchases I do, and she can remember every time she's had a knock down drag out with someone who was obviously lying about their product that they were selling.

Ebay puts SO much power into the sellers hands right now. Item description, S&H charges, neg feedback, block, etc. What do buyers have? Don't bid, neg feedback, get a refund from paypal. Even that is a huge hassle and a lot of pain. People just want to be able to buy stuff and not get screwed. Not fight with someone because there's a photocopy of a map and not the original. Or something reeks of smoke. Not have to resort to threats of neg feedback, etc.

Before Ebay, you'd go to swap meets and get your hands on someone else's crap before you purchased it. Then you could negotiate the price right on the spot. Ebay adds TONS of convenience for sellers and only increased opportunity for buyers.

You guys are only looking at this from the perspective of professional ebayers. I don't believe you guys represent the vast majority of interactions on Ebay.

I would be very surprised if Ebay is not making these changes without millions of auctions of feedback and data on which to examine a change. I'm willing to bet that bad sellers are a 10:1 or more bigger problem than bad buyers.

I still don't see how what ebay has now is any worse than the way things are sold on amazon. buyers will still be able to charge back to their credit cards if the items they receive are not as advertised.

Is it perfect? I doubt it. Are they raising their fees and selling it as lower fees? Yes. But, who doesn't do this sort of a thing? Does this hit middle level sellers who do lots of international shipping? yes. But it hits sellers like Coug 10x harder.

As a non-professional part time Ebay purchaser, I am very much looking forward to the new changes, across the board. I already pay excessive shipping on nearly everything I buy already, so I doubt the increase in fees will hit me very much if at all. And now, if something is really shitty, I don't have to worry about getting threatening emails, I rate the seller poorly, charge back my item and move on. Just like I do on every other web purchasing site on the internet.

Hi,

Sounds like you've been dealing with some really disreputable people. I've had some crummy experiences as a buyer but nothing that I couldn't reclaim after some cajolling. Being one who prizes ethics highly I do see how this could hurt; 99% of people are just great but that less than one percent can do things just to be hurtful or for no reason at all - that is my largest complaint; I don't need a reputation I've worked very hard to maintain to be sullied by someone who isn't having a good day. This is what the changes make very possible. As far as looking at it from the seller's point of view - yes, because that is what's being threatened. As you state, a buyer can always initiate a charge-back and that hasn't changed. A sellers reputation on the other hand will be very hard to fix given a buyer with buyers remorse or even a vengeful attitude from a lack of reading of the description of the auction.

I do understand what you are saying and hope it is a good experience for the buyers; as a seller however, given the vulnerability and increased fees I am not very hopeful.

Best regards,

Joe

bclarkie
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:53 pm

intelligator wrote: Being one who prizes ethics highly I do see how this could hurt; 99% of people are just great but that less than one percent can do things just to be hurtful or for no reason at all - that is my largest complaint; I don't need a reputation I've worked very hard to maintain to be sullied by someone who isn't having a good day.

Is this why you hide behind multiple buying IDs(including your newest one kthrace5) and continue to bid on people's items even after they have blocked you under no uncertain terms? Is that what good ethics are?

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

Last edited by bclarkie on Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

intelligator
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:10 pm

I will not get involved in a mud-slinging contest with you; that is not what this forum is for and it is unproductive and irrelevant to the ebay policy changes being discussed.

The ethics I was discussing have to do with the buyer-seller relationship; the seller/buyer fulfilling both parts of their transaction to their mutual satisfaction.

Please do not offer anymore emotionally charged verbage as I will not respond.

bclarkie
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:15 pm

intelligator wrote:I will not get involved in a mud-slinging contest with you; that is not what this forum is for and it is unproductive and irrelevant to the ebay policy changes being discussed.

The ethics I was discussing have to do with the buyer-seller relationship; the seller/buyer fulfilling both parts of their transaction to their mutual satisfaction.

Please do not offer anymore emotionally charged verbage as I will not respond.

Please do not tell me what to do you arrogant bastard. If you don't like me telling the truth about your ethics, then leave. I am not the one who thought he could pull off bidding on my stuff even though you knew you were blocked. What did you think I was dumb or something? Wrong answer.

And please I know about other stuff that you have pulled too, so don't act like you are all special, you're not.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

Last edited by bclarkie on Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Xaxaxe
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:20 pm

Busman wrote:Ebay puts SO much power into the sellers hands right now. Item description, S&H charges, neg feedback, block, etc. What do buyers have? Don't bid, neg feedback, get a refund from paypal.

Bullshit.

For one thing, sellers pay all of the fees on eBay ... it's funny how the pro-buyer crowd never brings that up. It bears repeating: ALL of the fees. Buying has always been a completely fee-free experience.

For another, the PayPal refund process favors buyers by a wide margin. A buyer can make a claim about any item for any reason, putting the burden of proof squarely on the seller's shoulders; the only defense sellers have is to track shipping, which is why so many sellers insist on delivery confirmation now. Without it, the PayPal default is to side with the buyer in virtually every case.

Some of your other examples are just confusing: how is "item description" a "power"? And blocking is a "power" only against users who are known idiots; it affects responsible buyers not at all. Not that it matters any longer: with eBay taking away the ability to leave non-positive feedback for a buyer, no one is going to know who to block until it is too late.

Yeah, that's some "power" sellers have there ...

Busman wrote:You guys are only looking at this from the perspective of professional ebayers.

It would be really great if you decided not to speak for all of us next time. A lot of us here are sellers and buyers, myself included ... in fact, I'm doing way more buying than selling right now. And there's actually very few "professional sellers" here, despite appearances to the contrary.

I know how both sides of the eBay equation work and I've watched for 10 years now how eBay has methodically shifted what needs to be a fairly even balance of power over to the buyer's side. This latest set of announcements just serves to confirm what many of us have suspected for quite a while: eBay is not interested in a level playing field. It's all about the buyers, all the time.

Busman wrote:I'm willing to bet that bad sellers are a 10:1 or more bigger problem than bad buyers.

And you'd be dead wrong.

Busman wrote:... so I doubt the increase in fees will hit me very much if at all.

You lost me here. If you're not selling, you're not paying any fees in the first place.

Busman
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:40 pm

Xaxaxe wrote:You lost me here. If you're not selling, you're not paying any fees in the first place.

**Please note that use of the word "you" in this post is used in the generic third person tone and not meant to single out Xaxaxe or any other "you" in particular. Replace with "one" in your mind if that achieves the level of impersonal response required for this not to be a direct attack against anyone.**

I would assume that any seller is passing any and all fees onto the buyer. The buyer pays the fees, unless the seller is a complete imbecile. Higher fees will mean increased S&H charges, buyers will pay more. If you aren't setting your prices and S&H such that you cover all of the fees that Ebay charges then you deserve to be run out of business, you aren't a good businessman.

Look at the words of the heavier sellers just in this thread. Higher fees will be passed on. Higher markups will be sought. etc.

Prior to Ebay the sale of used goods for 99.9999999% of the time meant there was a physical examination of the goods done before the buyer shelled out money. This crucial step has been eliminated from the process and there had better be a lot of onus on the seller be spotless in their reputation because the ability to rip off the buyer is through the roof.

As for speaking for "all of [you]", read the responses in this thread. Read your reaction to my saying that I'm looking forward to the changes. The vast majority of respondents to this thread decry the changes and anyone who sees good in them, this despite the single largest thread on the board is about a seller so vile if they were forced to do business in person they would have been out of business long ago.

I, too, have both bought and sold via Ebay, and by close proxy to my wife, bought and sold much more. I've also been reading this forum on and off for nearly 5 years now, so I'm not unfamiliar with with the personalities off the major respondents and how the tone of this board has evolved over the years.

I'll just have to agree to disagree with you that the balance of buyer and seller needs to be fairly even. Ebay is only now beginning to become a place more like real life business and less like mega rip-off factory for any unseemly seller with the penchant for exaggeration and deceit.

Think of it this way, there are far more buyers than there are sellers on Ebay. Each bad sale reflects poorly not just on the seller, but also on Ebay. They want to develop a cadre of sellers with pristine reputations for customer service, communication, and follow-through. Then people will think, "Wow, Ebay, that's a great place to buy stuff." As it stands now, there are so many things my wife has sworn off of ever buying from Ebay again that she's basically become an inactive buyer. I'd categorize Ebay as the place to get fecal covered baby clothing right now. If they can turn that reputation around, then that has to be better for their long term business. It's how real life business excels as well. Garner a sterling reputation and you will get great reductions in the fees Ebay charges. Be mediocre and get less. Be lazy or a bullshit artist and receive no benefits.

Finally, I don't think the majority of sellers on this board have much to worry about if they continue to be honest and excellent in their business dealings. I'd happily do business with basically everyone on this board, and I expect that I will be buying from a lot of them in the coming year or two as I rebuild my collection.

gyg
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:01 am

Busman wrote:

I would assume that any seller is passing any and all fees onto the buyer. The buyer pays the fees, unless the seller is a complete imbecile. Higher fees will mean increased S&H charges, buyers will pay more. If you aren't setting your prices and S&H such that you cover all of the fees that Ebay charges then you deserve to be run out of business, you aren't a good businessman.

Surely as a buyer you build in such fees into the amount you bid. I don't generally care wether a seller is bumping up shipping to cover costs - higher shipping means I bid less - as a buyer you have the final say as to how much money you will shell out. (The only exception is non-listed shipping - and of course you can always ask the question first)

Ebay puts SO much power into the sellers hands right now. Item description, S&H charges, neg feedback, block, etc. What do buyers have? Don't bid, neg feedback, get a refund from paypal. Even that is a huge hassle and a lot of pain. People just want to be able to buy stuff and not get screwed. Not fight with someone because there's a photocopy of a map and not the original. Or something reeks of smoke. Not have to resort to threats of neg feedback, etc

And as for most of this - I feel that the buyers powers far out-weigh the sellers.
Sellers
Item description is bad or turns out to be false - don't bid/paypal refund
S&H charges - see above
Neg Feedback - becoming less relevant IMO I'm afraid
Block - not even a valid argument - the only people I block are demonstrated crooks and scumbags - if you are a decent buyer this is irrelevant.
Buyers
Don't bid - the ultimate power against bad sellers (and a guaranteed way not to spend any money &/or get anything you actually want)
Neg Feedback- see above
Paypal refund - a pretty much sure-fire way to screw a seller - a good one or a bad one - and frankly, as a seller, this is the thing that scares me most about ebay - any fool can get their money back from me, and there is jack-shit I could do about it

Not a go at you personally, just a venting of e-bay frustrations - it's not perfect but I think we'll all agree that it is realistically the only place to buy and sell used games.

You can never have too much of something you didn't need in the first place.

bclarkie
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:11 am

Busman wrote:
I would assume that any seller is passing any and all fees onto the buyer. The buyer pays the fees, unless the seller is a complete imbecile. Higher fees will mean increased S&H charges, buyers will pay more. If you aren't setting your prices and S&H such that you cover all of the fees that Ebay charges then you deserve to be run out of business, you aren't a good businessman.

Look at the words of the heavier sellers just in this thread. Higher fees will be passed on. Higher markups will be sought. etc.
.

Although, I don't consider myself a heavier seller per se(I'd say middling) I have never really passed any fees onto my buyer. I always looked at as the cost of doing business. Also, raising S&H fees for a seller is going to be a catch-22 as if you do, your stars will take a beating and your fees will get raised so you take a loss in your bottom line. If you don't raise your S&H fees you are still losing out more on your bottom line anyway because you are not getting those fees recouped. The only one who wins is Ebay.

Aside from that, there is such a huge material flaw in the feedback philosphy because feedback to buyers no matter how good or bad you are means next to nothing. For sellers, even more so now with the changes, feedback is everything. As a buyer now, you can be the biggist dick in the world and it really costs you nothing because you can accumulate 100 negs and no one pays attention. As a seller, if you have lots of negs show up and/or a poor star rating buyers already know for the most part to stay away.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

killjoy32
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:47 am

if i remember correctly, youre not actually allowed to shoulder paypal charges and the like into your handling fees. didnt ebay stop that a while back? i guess thats what the star for the postage one is all about imp.

when you say the royal *you*, you imply all sellers, not just selective ones.

the new changes in the rules hit sellers far worse than anything the buyer has to worry about. in fact, i cant see ANYTHING that the buyer is affected by at all. if anything, the goal posts have moved far more favourably in their direction....simple as that, no matter what argument is concocted to shoulder this on a seller.

bus: your argument about sellers not handling thier fees/business correctly and if they dont, they are imbeciles..... well frankly, most ppl who sell on ebay, and i say most, are just like me/BC and the like....we are not businesses, we are just offloading some stuff, so its not a business in any ethical form.

by trade, i am an accountant, and am far more cabable of handling fees/overheads blah blah blah than most. however, the scenario we are discussing here, isnt the same playing field as a normal business. any of them on ebay that do that, go look at their star figures and you will see that they all take a fair battering when they handle any margins in their S&H fees. most i look at have 4 stars now, pretty much the same as the less reputable folk.

fair? highly doubt it whatever happens.

Al

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Busman
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:37 am

killjoy32 wrote:the new changes in the rules hit sellers far worse than anything the buyer has to worry about. in fact, i cant see ANYTHING that the buyer is affected by at all. if anything, the goal posts have moved far more favourably in their direction....simple as that, no matter what argument is concocted to shoulder this on a seller.

I've never argued to the contrary. The new rules are very clearly trying to make it a much more friendly buying experience. As primarily a buyer myself, I consider this a good thing.

There are also more buyers overall on Ebay than sellers, so I expect that Ebay believes this is a critical move as well. I have very little doubts that they would enact something as drastic as removing negative ratings on buyers without thinking it through and without data to back things up. As a pure guess, I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't seen a lot of business move over to Amazon in recent quarters and did some investigation into what was different and why they were losing sales in general overall.

As for S&H not being allowed to be used to absorb costs, while technically true, just look at the typical S&H for items versus what it used to be back in the day. All but the most new sellers have S&H at near $2 above cost of shipping for nearly everything, often much more. Yes, as a buyer I take that into consideration when I bid, but not everyone does, in fact, the typically higher S&H doesn't seem to have reduced pricing on auctions I've followed much, if at all. And overall, I don't mind. I expect that people should be making a profit on sales, or they wouldn't be selling and I wouldn't have a chance to buy.

killjoy32
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:34 am

a typical s&h issue can be discussed anytime, but lets be fair here, that is only one of the side-issues of this latest development of rule changes.

the cards are still stacked WAY in the favour of the buyer. even more so now than before. sure, it might kick some of the more disreputable sellers into line, but the good, decent ones, once again, are the ones who get stung the most.

i've never begrudged a seller adding a small handling fee. if its sensible and justified, thats fine. its when it takes the absolute proverbial, is when i or anyone else should have issue.

example. i once had a woman purchase a novel from me. the S&H cost was 25p (appx 50c) more than the actual postage fee. she wanted me to refund it. i mean, c'mon. thats absolutely ludicrous! it was in a brand new jiffy bag too! i had to refund it, because she was going to neg me otherwise. i had already left feedback, because i always feel thats what a seller should do.

there wasnt a thing i could do then, other than ensure that the woman never buys from me again.

now...that issue is even worse.

can the seller defend themselves...not at all. you are left wide open to a buyers discretion on how they feel like, when the time comes to leave feedback. was the above unreasonable from the side of a seller? not at all. but even still, you will still get buyers who think it is, and they will react that way.

Al

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bbarsh
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Had some time today to catch up here. Just read through most of this thread...

There can be no doubt that sellers are getting the short end of the stick. The fee situation sucks. The discussion about sellers just passing the increase on to buyers is not valid. Sellers do not control the final price of their auctions; buyer's do. Simply raising the starting bid amount or increasing the BIN is not a solution. BINs that are too high are ignored and starting price is seldom the real value, but a much lower value to spur on bidding.

I sure am glad that we (sellers) can't gen buyers anymore. Lord knows that they never deserve it.

I found the retalitory issue interesting, though. I wonder why it is that sellers are more likely (8x) to leave negative feedback (retalitory). Could it be that most sellers never leave negative feedback unless they are unfairly hit with a neg; therefore, leaving retalitory feedback. As a seller, I never leave negative feedback unless I get unfairly negged. I would rather just let it go, because the buyer will certainly retaliate. And since feedback is much more important to me as a seller than a buyer, I avoid the whole neg issue and just let it go and add the perp to the bad guy list.

I do like the one year thing. Also, the repeat buyer FB is a long time in coming. Other than that, things just got more difficult.

And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

New modules for your Old School game http://pacesettergames.com/

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Beyondthebreach
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:55 pm

I suggested the slight 2% price increase, but I just sell store items (no auctions), so I can charge whatever I want.

As for feedback - I will always leave for a buyer first and I have never left a buyer a negative. Actually, leaving feedback is just a small pain in my ass waste of time, so I am happy to no longer have to leave buyer's feedback.

But that's just me . . .

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ScketreWhisp®
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:26 pm

eBay and their wicked ways...

I closed my store, since I really don't care if my stuff sells or not, and moved everything over to OnlineAuction.com

http://onlineauction.com/index.php?page ... r_id=23542

heck, I am the only one selling "dragon magazine" at the moment... tells you how long the items might be there

But I'll be posting all my rares there in the next couple of weeks as well

Last edited by ScketreWhisp® on Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Plaag
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:19 am

That auction site has Google checkout which is good, course I've only used it for online stores.

ShaneG.

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benjoshua
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:39 am

The whole "Best Match" thing is frustrating for me. I would like to be able to change my default to the old system of "Time Ending Soonest." I guess as long as my feedback stays high, I suppose it helps my sales, but I'd personally like the choice. I am discovering however that the deals are not with page one of the Best Match search, but with the last page. So maybe this has a redeeming quality after all!

eBay is really pushing those Power Sellers with decent feedback to the front of the line. Their attitude is dive in head first or get out of the water. It's like eBay wants to become a store. HELLO! There are plenty of stores out there, but few places where ordinary people can have de-facto internet garage sales. eBay is getting out of the niche that made them successful to begin with. Then again, people like Coug come in and really muck up the waters. The ONLY thing that I like about these changes is that they really sock it to the Cougs of the eBay universe.

Truth is worth finding and life is too short to work for money.

beasterbrook
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:57 pm

benjoshua wrote:The whole "Best Match" thing is frustrating for me. I would like to be able to change my default to the old system of "Time Ending Soonest."

From reading the guidelines I thought you could, its the "default" search , not the only search..

Brette:)

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