Guy Fullerton wrote:I believe in the Acaeum Effect.

I believe in the Acaeum effect as well, but my thoughts on why it occurs is a bit difference from yours.  I believe the important part of the Acaeum Effect is that the auction and item are brought to the attention (i.e. listed in the Ebay thread) of other people who would not normally find it.  More potential bidders, then higher price.  With a competent auctioneer, you are getting the same service - someone who can properly identify the item and describe it.

Guy Fullerton wrote:Again, this probably doesn't instantly equate to a 100-fold increase in sales prices. But I *can* see it having a "significant effect" on the prices of big ticket items. (For some definition of "significant".)

Your right, it all comes down to definition of "significant".  If you want to quantify this, you need something to compare it to.  How about market value?  Then, you need to quantify, the detriment of GenCon, by limiting your audience of potential buyers to only 20,000 hardcore gamers who are dedicated enough to attend the con (plus the few who bid by phoning in).  Then quantify the effect of an industry personality versus someone who is merely competent.

However, consider this.  Ebay does not have "expert auctioneers".  But in every auction, some prices are going to above, below, or right on their expected value.  Everyday on Ebay we see people getting deals and others significantly overpaying for items.  This is the nature of auctions.
So why then, if an item sells for more than expected at GenCon do you attribute this to the prowess of an "expert auctioneer"?

Again, here are 3 of the top selling items from GenCon:

$1275 2nd Woodgrain
$700  10th Ann Chess Set
$460  Commemorative Miniature Dragon

I suggest that the woodgrain was sold a little bit under market value (10-15% under value), the chess set was sold probably 40-50% under value and the dragon piece I have to think was sold for 100%+ under value.  I think any of the buyers of these items could list these for sale here today (on the Acaeum) and turn a nice profit.  So if these were sold by an "expert auctioneer", then hie probably did okay with the woodgrain but then not so well on the chess set and poor on the dragon.  This is why I say, I think the effect of the "expert auctioneer" is negligible.

Guy Fullerton wrote:Just because revenue is increased 100-fold when an expert auctioneer is present, it *doesn't* mean that there is effectively 100x markup on each item sold.

I fully agree and that is why (if you read my original response before someone only took part of it out of context to pick at nits), I said:

Mars wrote:Im going to go out on a limb and say that there was more involved here.  If you are suggesting that an expert gets 100 times the sale price I think that is a pile of you know what.  Any difference between someone who is an expert and someone marginally competent would be negligible.

To rehash this one final time (because I think it has gone way beyond any useful discussion), the following comment was made in direct response to saying anyone could run an auction.  Here, I will highlight the part where credit/cause of the downfall is taken at the Origins auction:

ExTSR wrote:GAMA had the same attitude, so I walked out on the Origins game auction. Within 2 years their gross dropped from $50,000+ to $500-

I am going to guess that these are the years where Titan Games took over?  Where not just Frank left but it seems the whole staff running the auction left and was replaced by people who had never run an auction before and who were asked to do so at the last minute.  Funny how those facts didn't seem to get mentioned.  Instead, the only reasoning given for the decrease was that one "expert auctioneer" left.

Just as an aside, does The Partnership or Troll & Toad now run the auction at Origins now?

The Origins website suggests that it is Troll & Toad and not The Partnership.

Origins website wrote:In 2006, the Origins auction's management was taken over by Troll and Toad, who has moved this into the modern era by adding auctions for collectible card games, collectible miniatures, and video games.

I am guessing their practices at Origins are the same as GenCon.

Despite Frank's commendable support of T&T running these auctions, I'd be willing to bet that there will be a substantial and deffinate drop in both quality and revenue over the coming years until someone who knows and cares about RPGs, and who has intelligence, takes over.

I realise people have to retire, but you'd think 'The Partnership'  would know that a commercial organisation with a poor reputation in the market was a bad choice to run the auctions. T&T are only in this for the money.

Maybe in a few years we'll be able to take an accurate view on how T&T and 'The Partnership' have managed to develop these auctions.

mbassoc2003 wrote:Despite Frank's commendable support of T&T running these auctions, I'd be willing to bet that there will be a substantial and deffinate drop in both quality and revenue over the coming years until someone who knows and cares about RPGs, and who has intelligence, takes over.

I realise people have to retire, but you'd think 'The Partnership'  would know that a commercial organisation with a poor reputation in the market was a bad choice to run the auctions. T&T are only in this for the money.

Maybe in a few years we'll be able to take an accurate view on how T&T and 'The Partnership' have managed to develop these auctions.

From your past experiences at Gencon over the last few years, what have they been doing wrong, and how should they make it better?

I've tried to figure out just how "The Partnership" works and Frank explained it and I still did not understand.  The main thing I get from Frank is that he is not concerned with T&T bidding on every single RPG item in the auctions.  Normally that is more than good enough for me.

Now if someone from T&T is part of "The Partnership" then I have a problem with T&T bidding on just about every single RPG item.  By bidding on so many items they are setting the minimum selling price.  There's nothing really wrong with that as I or you could do the same if we are willing to actually pay for the items we win.  But it does have the perception of something very wrong.

I'm just going to have to go with the fact that Frank isn't worried about it and he knows more than I.

(edited for spelling)

Martin

I guess I'd agree with Martins comments.
I cant see that a company bidding on everything, bearing in mind they (appear) to indirectly get a cut of each sale price, seems odd.
I dont know if Christies bid on items, but I may understand.
Do T&T bid on their items they put up for sale? Just curious, nothing implied.

I only have two Gencons under my belt.  Nevertheless I've been part of the process (both bidding, and having over 100 items put up for sale in 2008). I also sat through quite a bit of all three days of auctioning.



First, an "expert" auctioneer versed in gaming helps a LOT at Gencon.  Now, many of the benefits will be intangible.  Unless you've been there and seen it happen (just like trying to review a movie you haven't seen yet), you don't know what these guys do and how it helps the bottom line. I will relate a case where the presence of an expert auctioneer helped, but didn't show up on the stats.  Thursday morning Smarmy and I are in the auction room.  Some schlub is auctioning stuff (not one of the pros). Next item up: Something called "Booty and the Beast".  I'm standing in line and Smarmy is sitting, our necks about break swiveling around to check it out. There are about 20 people in the auction room early Thursday morning...there is NO WAY either Smarmy or I aren't walking out of the room with that Booty at a SEVERELY discounted price, because the auctioneer has no clue what it is and it wasn't pulled for the "rares" portion (guys like Stratochamp periodically comb through the stuff brought in to pull rares, Bill musta missed it!).  



 Before bidding begins, Josh (one of the more professional and knowledgable auctioneers) walks over, checks out the item, and says "Sorry folks, this goes in the rares section".  Right there, knowledgable auctioneer saves item for going far cheaper than it shouldve.  Item right after? Early printing of Bunnies and Burrows (may have been a first). Josh hasn't even walked away when he hears it announced, turns back around, and pulls it also for the rares. Boy Smarmy and I were pissed!!!    But had Josh not been there, both items would have gone far under market value.  Little things like that occur again and again during the three days of auctions and can add up to quite a bit of money.  What's the difference between, say, an 8th print of the 1E DMG and the 1st?  Wouldn't you rather have someone like Frank or Josh or Tim up there checking, just to be sure?  Or some dork that doesn't know the differences in printings can equal big bucks? That is a swing of at least a hundred bucks, easy, and believe me it happens all auction. Ask Kingofpain about the MERP Grey Mountains he got last year for about 10 bucks (sells on ebay for ten times that....)



As a seller there, I disagree with Deimos. I think the auctioneers biggest priority is to make the MOST money for items. #1, as the seller I get more for my item.  Because of this, I'm liable to bring more items back the NEXT year, and the year after, etc. If the auctioneer sucks and isn't getting enough for my items, I won't bring anything....and neither will a lot of other people...leading to reduced profits. This may be what happened at Origins.  I don't WANT a neutral, disiinterested boob shilling my item. Actually, I did see that with a few of my items that came up during the day when the less professional and more "volunteer" guys were auctioning, and frankly it infuriated me.  No, I want someone pimping my item and getting me the most profit for my items.

#2 Why shouldn't the auctioneer try to get the most money for their product?  They get paid by commissions.  If they aren't making money, then maybe there's not an auction some year (or it turns into Origins, far worse).



You can't compare auction prices with ebay prices....you just can't.  NOTHING GOES FOR MARKET (EBAY) VALUE AT GENCON...NOTHING!  They are two totally different forums, different bidders, different  everything. One venue has millions of people, where items are visible for days, the other hundreds, where items are visible for minutes.  To compare the two formats is very disingenuous.  Plus, you aren't taking into context all the lesser items that go for far more at the auction than on ebay. You can cherry pick the results from year to year and say "see, that would have gone for $500 more on ebay", but it doesn't prove a thing except that ebay can reach a lot more people, and an item is visible for a lot longer time.



The "significant effect" is ONLY in relation to similar items at Gen Con itself...not compared against a broader field containing tons more variables, including an increase of about a million in possible buyers.  I've been there, and it's real, and those guys do get more for the items than the guys who don't know the field.





Mike B.

Badmike wrote:As a seller there, I disagree with Deimos. I think the auctioneers biggest priority is to make the MOST money for items. #1, as the seller I get more for my item.

Sure, as a seller you'd think that.  As a buyer I'm thinking precisely the opposite.  Guess we'll agree to disagree, Mike, but there's no way the auction staff should be taking sides in the matter.

I don't see how someone can place so much value on the possibility of a seller making off like a bandit, but virtually no value on the possibility of a buyer doing so.  It made me chuckle that you were horrified you might actually get something rare at an affordable price!

Guy Fullerton wrote:I believe in the Acaeum Effect. People start talking about the history of, or the reviews about, an eBay item, and the price jumps up, even if several sold just last week for far less.

Oh yes.  The Acaeum Effect is quite real.