Two thoughts re 4E:

1)  When I got back from GenCon, the first thing I did was to come back here and check to see if the thread about 4E was a hoax.  The entire time I was there (R/F/Sa) I never heard "4E" or "4th edition" spoken by a single attendee.  Not a single one.  
Admittedly, I didn't play RPGA or anything like that, but talk about a lack of buzz.  The game that built GenCon being met with that kind of indifference at GC blows my mind.

2)  Newer isn't always worse.  I had to be dragged into it kicking and screaming, but after I tried it, I decided 2E (speaking solely in terms of core rules) was considerably better than 1E.
Still, I don't have much faith in WotC to get this right.

mordrin wrote:Two thoughts re 4E:

1)  When I got back from GenCon, the first thing I did was to come back here and check to see if the thread about 4E was a hoax.  The entire time I was there (R/F/Sa) I never heard "4E" or "4th edition" spoken by a single attendee.  Not a single one.  
Admittedly, I didn't play RPGA or anything like that, but talk about a lack of buzz.  The game that built GenCon being met with that kind of indifference at GC blows my mind.

2)  Newer isn't always worse.  I had to be dragged into it kicking and screaming, but after I tried it, I decided 2E (speaking solely in terms of core rules) was considerably better than 1E.
Still, I don't have much faith in WotC to get this right.

I agree with Modrin.  Absolutely no buzz on 4E the entire time I was there (then again, I spent half my time in the Auction room, so....).  I found out about the announcement here of all places, when I checked it at night, rather than at the convention. Then again they are going to build it during the next year to make a big splash at next year's Gencon I have a feeling.

Mike B.

Easily done. Take a bagful of liquid dog shit, stuff all your books in it, shake it about and presto! They're 4E books.

Deadlord39 wrote:Easily done. Take a bagful of liquid dog shit, stuff all your books in it, shake it about and presto! They're 4E books.

I see.  So 4e is a fertile environment that will stimulate new growth and interest in D&D?  Fantastic!!!

Rising like a shit-phoenix from the waste products that are the previous editions, we bring you the glory of 4e!

when we were playing Tegel, there was a group behind us playing 3.5

man they had a pile of books next to the dm. i could have used them as a chair they were that high.

i had DMG, PHB, MM and the module and that was it

i looked at 4 pages in the DMG, the guys got spells and a few stats from the PHB and we referred to the MM when showing pics of monsters...the rest was the game itself and interaction.

thats how a game should be.

will be interested to see what Jeff says about 4.0 when it comes out as he and his group are gonna migrate to it.

Al

killjoy32 wrote:and we referred to the MM when showing pics of monsters...

You guys haven't memorized the contents of the MM yet? That's actually a bit shocking.  

/rant

Quick (?) WotC rant:  

The problem with WotC AFAICT is that while there are people who understand the gaming community (and I mean this in the broadest sense -- CCG gamers, RPG gamers, Board gamers and yes even Computer gamers)  at various positions and levels of the company (this is my roundabout way of saying there are some great and some very decent folks that work for WotC).  There appears to be no one in senior (aka decision-making authority) management at WotC (and Hasbro) who knows what the heck they've got and what to do with it -- and its been that way since Adkinson left.

I won't waste the board's time listing all the bad decisions they've made with respect to synergy (cross brand marketing), brand development and direction generally, and online/computer platforms.  I will however focus briefly on just two miserable failures -- DDO (since it was mentioned in this thread) and customer retention (as it applies to this thread).

First DDO.  What the hell were they thinking releasing an MMO based on a new IP? Where was Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms or Planescape or heck even Dark Sun.  All would have done better than a new IP and would have drawn former customers back into the fold.  WoW -- everyone's model for MMOs these days was based on an IP that had been around since 1993 (and was itself based on the much older Warhammer IP).   Releasing a new IP like that showed absolutely no understanding of the market.

Second Customer Retention.  Be it CCGs or RPGs -- WotC is clearly focused only on the new customer.   Attracting new younger gamers from the teen set and ignoring all its older gamers.  Why? Too many MBAs I supposed -- who have bought into the 15 year-olds have the most disposable income theory of markeing.   Of course they are competing with video games, movies, MMOs and etc for those same 15 year olds.   They are competing with no one for their older customers.  Take my, not unusual example, I bought a decent amount of 2e but never touched 3e or 3.5e and won't touch 4e.  Reading this thread shows that I'm not the only one in this position -- what they should have done is provide product that could be converted to 1e/2e (and now 3e) so that even if I wasn't buying the core rulebooks they could still sell some modules to me.   The one way for them might be 2-3 pages of notes on how to convert the 3e/3.5e/4e module to 1/2e at the end of each module.  Alternatively, they could have a seperate line of "Classic D&D" modules (and perhaps reprints of the core set) using 2e rules with conversion charts for 1e at the end of each module.  

There is no reason they have to completely dump the prior edition (note that I recognize that 2e came about becaue of copyright issues with the 1e core books).   But the WotC mentality (at the top) seems to be to get the teen dollars, hold those bucks for as long as you can, and then try to get a younger set of teens.     But given all those aforementioned video-games, movies and MMOs this is not a competition they can win in the long term.

Oh, and memo to WotC -- fire whoever came up with Gleemax.  It isn't funny (okay it was funny for about 4 seconds until I realized you guys were serious), it is just stupid.

/rant off

bclarkie wrote:I agree with just about everything except this:



What copyright issues?

I always heard (and maybe the forum can correct me) that once EGG and TSR had their falling out -- TSR realized that EGG owned the copyright on the core rulebooks for 1e and they had to continue to pay him royalties.  To get around this they released 2e.

tdewey10 wrote:/rant

Quick (?) WotC rant:  

.........

Oh, and memo to WotC -- fire whoever came up with Gleemax.  It isn't funny (okay it was funny for about 4 seconds until I realized you guys were serious), it is just stupid.

/rant off

I am not sure but take a look at this eBay auction...




** expired/removed eBay auction **