The "Whine About the Dead Horse Being Beaten" Thre • Page 8 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

The Acaeum Forums • Collecting General

The "Whine About the Dead Horse Being Beaten" Thre
	Page 8 of 13 • 1 2 3 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 11 12 13

Author

mbassoc2003
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:37 pm

I imagine it's the interface with the backoffice and stock control systems that are the problem, but even those interfacing systems are not rocket science. If they have to wait for two years for some guy's son to go through college, that might explain the issues.

Either way, it doesn't explain why none of the staff will get off their seats, pick up a camera and take a photo.

This is purely a case of earning money and not giving two hoots how bad things get for the customer. They can start by sacking the staff that don't know the difference between very good condition and battered to f"ck. I've been for interviews where I've had to justify my proficiency by by describing objects on a table. A simple spread of three stock items will decide at interview whether a candidate had an inclination towards telling the truth or not.

This is all moot. The evidence is that the staff follow a company culture that is set at a very high level, and nothing has changed in the past years, except the muppet feeding the forums cr@p excuses. Same excuses, different gimp.

We'll be having these same discussions, offering the same advice, pointing out the same failings and listening to the same sh!te in a year or two, and probably a year or two after that. That tells us the company is stable and has found a market. I can only assume that RPGs are not the core business, or the RPG market has more idiots than I had thought.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Mars
Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 6172
Joined: May 03, 2003
Last Visit: Feb 10, 2026
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:58 pm

If the trolls are still around, can I ask how this price was arrived at?

** expired/removed eBay auction **

A month ago, most reputable stores were giving away these promo items for free. In the last couple weeks, these have been selling for about $25 on Ebay with the occassional one hitting $35.

So, first off, as a store you have decided you want to profit from selling the promo items WotC sends you (which says something in itself), and second you choose a price that is 3 times the going rate for the item.

I was just curious, how you arrive at your pricing?

mbassoc2003
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:41 pm

I think if T&T are deliberately signing up for promo stuff from WoTC, which WoTC intend to be used to promote their products, and then T&T are going to try to sell the stuff at rediculous prices in order to profit from their deception, that is morally contemptable. But, maybe T&T paid for the product from an equally corrupt reseller, and are merely selling goods they purchased, and not being a$$holes.

A enquiry to WoTC about their policy on profiteering may be in order? And continued enquiries to all of WoTC's e-mail addresses, highlighting the issue, may well annoy WoTC to the point of doing something about the resale of promo products. Especially if people can identify persistent resellers and clear exploitation of WoTC's customers.

How about an e-mail to WoTC's customer services saying, "I have, for a long time, wished to introduce my children to Dungeons & Dragons, as I grew up playing the game myself. The introduction of your new boxed set looks like the ideal product, and when I heard your company was promoting the release, I contacted all my local stores to try to find out about it's release. Try as I might, I have not been able to get ahold of any of the promotional material you planned to release, and I was also unable to locate any shop promoting your product. However, I find it outrageous that your 'promotional' material finds it way to resellers who offer it to families and children at rediculous prices like this... Insert Link. How can WoTC allow such behaviour to happen in WoTC's name and allegedly promoting what used to be a game designed for our children?"

You may find WoTC send you a freebie and if enough people complain, maybe T&T will take their auction down. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't vanish real quick before they get an enquiry from WoTC.

Either way, I don't expect the organ grinder is going to respond lucidly to your enquiry, and I'd expect the two minions either don't have the knowledge or authority to respond, or will both respond and criticise eachother, claim some level of ignorance, and then feed the thread with some convoluted cr@p.

I'm betting on total silence and a listing vanishing act.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Traveller
Prolific Collector

Posts: 852
Joined: Jun 12, 2004
Last Visit: Jun 22, 2026

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:45 pm

Mars wrote:If the trolls are still around, can I ask how this price was arrived at?

Tossing darts.

Not that it's going to be of much help, since what "okgamer" said here contradicts the private discussion between Jchriddy and myself, but I did give advice to Jchriddy, despite the warnings of mbassoc. I do get the feeling that Jchriddy at the very least wants to put his customers first, but his desire won't go far in the company, not when you have "okgamer" running the show. I'm usually a pretty good judge of character, and while Jchriddy strikes me as a decent guy, okgamer is anything but.

But that's management for you. Profit, first, last, and always. Putting customers first be damned.

The Gray Book: My homage to E.G.G.

Star Trek: Alpha Quadrant: The game Mongoose failed to make.

mbassoc2003
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:10 pm

Having a 'great guy' in middle management is fine. But he's completely ineffectual if the people he employs to run things below him, and manage people below him, are muppets. Even to the extent that those below him blame everything on their staff knowing nothing and not giving a damn about their work.

Regardless of the attitude o the guy who owns the company, the 'great guy' is not so 'great' if he can't pick, train, and manage the people beneath him. And after the many years of the same old sh!t coming out of T&T's frontmen, he is sounding like a guy who just wants to feed us cr@p and get his pay packet for the least amount of effort.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Traveller
Prolific Collector

Posts: 852
Joined: Jun 12, 2004
Last Visit: Jun 22, 2026

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:26 pm

Hmm...so by that definition, the one year I spent as a store manager in a company where I couldn't hire or fire as I pleased means I wanted to feed my customers crap and get paid for the least amount of effort?

Your point of view is hideously imbalanced and your words border on histrionics. Neither of which are helping matters at all. Regardless of what Troll & Toad actually does, if they choose to do anything at all, do you honestly think Troll & Toad is going to listen to anyone who attacks them with such venom, even if justified?

The Gray Book: My homage to E.G.G.

Star Trek: Alpha Quadrant: The game Mongoose failed to make.

mbassoc2003
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:50 am

Why did you stay only a year?

Surely the quality of a manager is measured by the value of his words and the effectiveness of his actions? If you find yourself in a management position where you are not able to perform your job because those above you will not allow you to do it, any moral person would think, "wait a minute, I'm beeing used here as a mouthpiece and I'm not doing anything worthwhile." And if you find that you are in a managerial role where you are unable to employ intelligent staff, and/or unable to train or motivate the staff you have to engage in even a cursory manner with the product, you must ask yourself, "Is it me being a bad manager, or is it the staff being bad staff?" If you eliminate yourself as the bad manager, and you cannot replace, train or employ competent staff, you must again wonder why any moral person continues to do such a bad job.

If, after a year, you continue to remain in a job where you are either incompetent yourself, or suffocated by company culture to the point where your thoughts and actions are ineffectual, your only reason for remaining within the job is because you value your wage more than you value your own integrity and self-worth, or you have aligned yoursef with the company culture and changed your value system to suit.

I see no reason other than money or the desire to tow the company line why someone you think may be a good standup guy who wants to put the customer first remains with a company that has made no outward appearance of having changed its culture and competence in the intervening years.

Furthermore, the two minnions that preceded him on this thread and started rolling out all the same excuses and platiudes, falling over eachother in their rush to pass the buck, this 'great guy' personally employed becasue of how good they were, and he came on the thread to reinforce their position and blowing sunshine about what a wonderful job they are doing and how hard they work.

I must question what you believe makes this manager actaully wants to put his cusomer first, and why you think he and his staff come on the forum and then provide the same responses they have been feeding their customers for years?

Is that what you would do? Or would you have jumped ship the minute you realised you had no value to the organisation? Would you have placed your own moral values above that of making someone else money?

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Invincible Overlord
Verbose Collector
JG Valuation Board
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1624
Joined: Aug 19, 2008
Last Visit: Aug 21, 2023
Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:35 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:Why did you stay only a year?

Is that what you would do? Or would you have jumped ship the minute you realised you had no value to the organisation? Would you have placed your own moral values above that of making someone else money?

Sometimes you don't have the luxury of choosing a job of your choice. Sometimes you have to take a job to make a living.

Noble causes and high moral grounds you speak of sir, but in this imperfect world that's not going to fly...

RPGâ€™s, D&D in particular has had a major influence in my life. Itâ€™s bonded me together with life long friends...itâ€™s that bond in life not just as friends, but in our jokes, our mannerisms, and what we find funny. Invincible Overlord

mbassoc2003
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:40 pm

Invincible Overlord wrote:
Sometimes you don't have the luxury of choosing a job of your choice. Sometimes you have to take a job to make a living.

Noble causes and high moral grounds you speak of sir, but in this imperfect world that's not going to fly...

But surely we should not discard our moral values for the sake of earning a wage.

I can see that some people would be able to dispense with caring about providing quality and integrity in exchange for money, especially in troubled times. But the evidence is that T&T have provided the same level of service regardless of economic times. This tells me they either seek out employees who are desperate for work and will not exercise their own moral code in light of that desperation for an income, or they seek out weak willed staff who are not capable of exercising their own value system and can easily be molded to confiorm to the company's norm. Who knwos. Bottom line is the company continues year on year to provide the same servive, display the same exagerations of quality in favour of trying to get more money out of people on the back of it, and refuses point blank to post photos or tell the buyer truthfully what they are bidding on and it's condition, despite ann the bullsh!t some guy might say about how he really cares what buyers thing. Bullsh!t is bullsh!t regardless of whether you think the guy saying it is doing so 'co he wants to keep his job, or doing so because he believes it.

Maybe a 'great guy' as someone said this guy was in their opinion, would at least have the balls to say, "you know what, I have to feed you guys the company line becayuse I can't afford to lose my job, and you're right, I'll try my hardest, but no-one in here listens to me, and my boss doesn't give a f"ck what you think so long as he's got your money." Then at least we'd know we what was was and wasn't company line.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Traveller
Prolific Collector

Posts: 852
Joined: Jun 12, 2004
Last Visit: Jun 22, 2026

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:31 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:Why did you stay only a year?

The management job was in 1999. I left because I felt the company was moving in the wrong direction. I've since been proven right, but it took ten years before it happened. And for the record, I didn't give a damn about the money.

However, nice attempt to shift the heat from yourself and your words and actions on this thread. Point of the matter is that because of you sir, Troll & Toad is less likely to actually act upon the advice given to them on this thread by myself and some of the other cooler heads. Your actions on this thread overstepped the bounds of good taste two pages ago, and I'm being generous. I could say that every post you made on this thread was nothing more than a flame, and was really unnecessary.

Next time a Troll & Toad complaint pops up, how about attacking the argument instead of the poster?

The Gray Book: My homage to E.G.G.

Star Trek: Alpha Quadrant: The game Mongoose failed to make.

Johnson
Verbose Collector

Posts: 1296
Joined: Nov 06, 2002
Last Visit: Jun 23, 2026
Location: Essex, UK

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:40 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:
But surely we should not discard our moral values for the sake of earning a wage.

Yeah, your kids are starving, but thats OK cos you kept your morals.

:salut:

Cheers,
Malc

I have a plan so cunning, you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel.

ExTSR
Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor
Valuation Board

Posts: 1945
Joined: May 01, 2004
Last Visit: Aug 06, 2026
Location: Almost Lake Geneva, WI

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:10 pm

Traveller wrote:Next time a Troll & Toad complaint pops up, how about attacking the argument instead of the poster?

Um... do you honestly think that the T&T folks are reading Ian's posts at this point?

mbassoc2003
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:37 pm

Traveller wrote:I've since been proven right.

LOL. It's often the case in my experience.

Traveller wrote:However, nice attempt to shift the heat from yourself and your words and actions on this thread. Point of the matter is that because of you sir, Troll & Toad is less likely to actually act upon the advice given to them on this thread by myself and some of the other cooler heads. Your actions on this thread overstepped the bounds of good taste two pages ago, and I'm being generous. I could say that every post you made on this thread was nothing more than a flame, and was really unnecessary.

Fair comment. Deserved.

Traveller wrote:Next time a Troll & Toad complaint pops up, how about attacking the argument instead of the poster?

We've tried that route many times, but always happy to go back over old ground and listed the same platitudes and exuses. I agree, it may onbly be the second time we've hreard the same excuses come out of this particular rep', but if you think they need more time and more chances to repeat the stuff, so be it. Maybe 10 years down the line you'll think differently. Leopards and spots and all that. IMO you cannot seperate the man from the company when the man turns up spouting the same excuses that have been rolled out year on year. He is representing his company, and talking up his staff and talking down the issue is not representative of good moral structure, be that within a company or a man.

Put it this way...

If Cougie turned up on the "I hate Cougie" thread, and tried to respond to alegations of incorrect descriptions or poor customer services, what level of vitrol, and how many board members would go straight for the throat? There is no difference.

And he's wasn't here last year trying to feed you all bullsh!t.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

killjoy32
Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8283
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 26, 2025
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:20 pm

guys c'mon hey.

folk have vented their spleen, T&T have replied.

whether the matter is resolved or not at this point, does it really matter anymore?

you either buy from them because you want to, or you don't for whatever reason fits.

if you don't like how they do things, don't buy anything. if you don't like the price, don't buy. if you don't like the customer service, or the posters on here, or the fact that they use a stock pic on expensive stuff or whatever, then simply don't even go near their site/service then.

i think enough has been said now? lets please leave things be and the matter will either sort itself out in whatever time it takes them to do so, or it won't.

more fuel on the fire won't resolve anything.

all the best

Al

Are we nearly there yet?

Traveller
Prolific Collector

Posts: 852
Joined: Jun 12, 2004
Last Visit: Jun 22, 2026

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:29 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:And he's wasn't here last year trying to feed you all bullsh!t.

There are two fundamental differences between Cougie and Troll & Toad. First is that Troll & Toad is willing to weather the slings and arrows that have been tossed its way. Coug has to grow a set to even get that far. Second is that Troll & Toad is an actual business, with a warehouse, employees, and licenses to operate. Coug is just a one-man band that has turned his hobby into a revenue stream.

What I think is very simple. Troll & Toad has a business model that, while flawed, does in fact work. Yes it does need a fair amount of tinkering, especially in regard to pictures and descriptions. Other people in this thread have asked how they have come up with the prices they set. I jokingly said "tossing darts" earlier in the thread. The reality of the matter is that Troll & Toad is going to set the price to what they believe the market will bear, rather than what the members of this site and the people who maintain the valuations believe they should be. Why?

Because they are a business, and are trying to turn a profit on what they sell. Case in point regarding trying to turn a profit is the baseball card market. There is a reason as to why Beckett's Baseball Card Monthly and Tuff Stuff called their pricing charts guides. That is to give both the collector and the reseller an idea as to what a particular card is worth. But neither is required to follow the price in the guide. The reseller will set a price at what he thinks the market will bear. At the same time the buyer has a choice in whether to buy at that price, or try and find another dealer that has the same card at the price the buyer wants to pay.

The level of vitriol that would be leveled at Coug wouldn't faze him, because he simply doesn't give a damn what anyone on this site thinks. He sets the prices at what he believes the market will bear, just like anyone else that sells a product.

Like it or not, in the end you have a choice regarding both Troll & Toad and Coug. Either buy from them at the prices they set, or don't. Because in the area of pricing, they don't answer to this forum.

The Gray Book: My homage to E.G.G.

Star Trek: Alpha Quadrant: The game Mongoose failed to make.

Alexander
Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1293
Joined: Nov 24, 2002
Last Visit: Mar 27, 2026
Location: Brescia, Italy

Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:03 pm

Traveller wrote:There are two fundamental differences between Cougie and Troll & Toad. First is that Troll & Toad is willing to weather the slings and arrows that have been tossed its way. Coug has to grow a set to even get that far. Second is that Troll & Toad is an actual business, with a warehouse, employees, and licenses to operate. Coug is just a one-man band that has turned his hobby into a revenue stream.

What I think is very simple. Troll & Toad has a business model that, while flawed, does in fact work. Yes it does need a fair amount of tinkering, especially in regard to pictures and descriptions. Other people in this thread have asked how they have come up with the prices they set. I jokingly said "tossing darts" earlier in the thread. The reality of the matter is that Troll & Toad is going to set the price to what they believe the market will bear, rather than what the members of this site and the people who maintain the valuations believe they should be. Why?

Because they are a business, and are trying to turn a profit on what they sell. Case in point regarding trying to turn a profit is the baseball card market. There is a reason as to why Beckett's Baseball Card Monthly and Tuff Stuff called their pricing charts guides. That is to give both the collector and the reseller an idea as to what a particular card is worth. But neither is required to follow the price in the guide. The reseller will set a price at what he thinks the market will bear. At the same time the buyer has a choice in whether to buy at that price, or try and find another dealer that has the same card at the price the buyer wants to pay.

The level of vitriol that would be leveled at Coug wouldn't faze him, because he simply doesn't give a damn what anyone on this site thinks. He sets the prices at what he believes the market will bear, just like anyone else that sells a product.

Like it or not, in the end you have a choice regarding both Troll & Toad and Coug. Either buy from them at the prices they set, or don't. Because in the area of pricing, they don't answer to this forum.

An EXCEPTIONAL posting! I agree, being a business and a reseller myself, to every word he wrote.

mbassoc2003
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:21 pm

Yep. We all choose who we buy from and who we don't. That's why I don't get it when people come on the forums and complein when they get mislead or feel cheated or get rude service from companies like T&T and people like Cougie.

The forum is already awash with complaints about both these dealers, and the internet has further negative threads and sources of info on how these people deal with their customers. So if someone get's sucked in and decides to take a chance, they really have only themselves to blame for ignoring all the negative press these dealers collect.

This thread is just pertinant because T&T push forward apologists and give oiut the same bullsh!t excuses year on year. Cougie is wise enough not to come forward and make excuses for the business he conducts and the experiences reported by his buyers.

At the end of the day, conducting business in a manner that leads to misrepresentation of products, consistently, year on year, with the intent of making profit by exagerating condition, or with the excuse that 'we can't find staff that are interested in the product and we can't be bothered taking photos and it costs too much money to give a truthful descrption of our goods, is not acceptable and can't be dressed up as 'well that's just the nature of business'.

People can make all the excuses they like, but all the complainers and critics are asking for is good old fashioned honesty. Honesty from day one, when a person goes to work, all the way to honesty when the product is sold, shipped, and honesty when the apologists turn up on foirums to make excuses about why they can't be honest with buyers.

Business, regardless of what country you live in, what the nature of the economy is, or how many people you employ, should not preclude honesty and good customer service.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Traveller
Prolific Collector

Posts: 852
Joined: Jun 12, 2004
Last Visit: Jun 22, 2026

Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:48 pm

Grading is not a perfect science by any stretch of the imagination, and your Fine-grade Expedition to the Barrier Peaks might be my VG because I saw something you didn't, or more likely ignored. In shopping for baseball cards I had dealers ignoring flaws more often than I cared to see, and made it a point to dress them down at shows whenever they misgraded a card.

IF Troll & Toad changes nothing and their grading is hideously off the mark, then you have cause to bitch and moan. Though honestly bitching and moaning doesn't do much good unless you send it to the right place in the first place. If I recall, MetamorphosisSigma did in fact attempt to get a hold of Troll & Toad first before bringing his concern to the forum. How many of these complaints were actually sent to Troll & Toad, and how many of these complaints are about the price rather than the grade?

Condition? Critical. That is why the majority of my private discussion with Jchriddy focused on pictures and accurate grading of their stock. I didn't focus on price, because as mentioned previously, they will set the price to what the market will bear, and not what the forum believes the price should be.

All we're seeing are the negative complaints. How many satisfied customers do Troll & Toad have compared to the complaints? Nobody knows because we don't hear from those people. The point is that the negative complaints you see both here and on other places across the Internet are likely NOT a significant portion of Troll & Toad's customer base. I agree that good business practice requires both honesty and integrity. But you're basing your assessment of the company's honesty and integrity solely on the negative complaints, because that's all you're seeing. Therefore, you're not getting the whole picture.

Want the whole picture? A good place to start is Troll & Toad's financial statements, which should be a matter of public record since those statements have to be filed with the state they operate the business out of. From there, you should be able to deduce just how well they have been satisfying their customer base in general. If things are truly as bad as the negative posts claim, then Troll & Toad's sales figures for this time of year compared to last should be in the red. I suspect though they're in the black.

The Gray Book: My homage to E.G.G.

Star Trek: Alpha Quadrant: The game Mongoose failed to make.

The Acaeum Forums • Collecting General

Page 8 of 13 • 1 2 3 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 11 12 13