benjoshua wrote:
There is definitely an Israel bias in this country.  I have been to Israel and spoken personally to a number of different people, even those who are Israeli citizens, and they had some amazingly damaging things to say about their own country.

From what I heard and can tell, the Israelis are trying to control demography with geography.  They are taking all the water, fertile land, and other valuable pieces of property bit by bit.  You look at maps of Israel's borders year after year and it just keeps growing and growing and growing as they shove the Palestinians out.  I have seen "border" crossings within the country for Palestinians, and they are insane; very long lines and totally disrespectful inspectors on many occasions.  Lots of people get shot for no good reason.

Now don't get me wrong, BOTH sides are clearly wrong.  The Palestinians who are terrorizing and such need to stop.  But think about this; when you keep getting pushed and shoved and displaced and shot, it'll make you so mad you might even blow yourself up.  And that is exactly what is happening.  The people there are crazy mad from being treated like crap constantly.  And don't tell me you can't see the irony from just sixty years ago as the Jewish people were being treated like crap.

Finally, the US is partly to blame for this because we support Israel to the tune of $15 million a day.  That needs to stop in my opinion.

O.K., take a deep breath.  Settle down.  If I keep my mouth shut for just a few decades longer, they'll all be dead, and I won't hear the screams anymore.

No. Both sides are not to blame. There was a cease fire in place and Hamas was firing rockets into Isreal. Hamas is directly supported by Iran in an effort to destabilize the region for their own ends.

Finally, the US is partly to blame for this because we support Israel to the tune of $15 million a day.  That needs to stop in my opinion.

I'm sorry Ben, you are a good guy, but enough with the delusion that America is always wrong and to blame. If the U.S. did not support Isreal, there wouldn't be an Isreal. And I am sure there are plenty of people who don't have a problem with that, but I do.

While in the army, I spent time in the sinai. I've no problem with Isreal's response.

As far as an Isreal bias in the U.S. is concerned...there should be. Something to do with right and wrong. And there are always people who seem to love to hate their own country. We have plenty of those right here in the goold ole u.s. of a. Blame America first...because we are evil and corporate. Please. The U.S. spends more money helping the less fortunate than any other country in the world. And I am not just talking about direct aid. Charity and donations from private individuals far exceeds what the government spends. For pete's sake, President Bush has done more for Africa than any president in history - or any other country for that matter.

But none of that will ever change the minds of the blame america first crowd. I am not saying we are perfect, but we're certainly not the problem.

Here's an interesting article from a respected military historian and previous Air Force intelligence officer.  This is a published piece so I don't believe there are any issues posting it here as it is available on the web.  It's a good read and much more factual than the opinions of the misinformed public - not to say that we Acaeum members are completely misinformed, but we hear the rantings of a biased press.


Operation Cast Lead: A Necessary, Just and Legal Response
By Dr. Earl H. Tilford
January 07, 2009


As soon as Israeli air strikes began striking Hamas-controlled Gaza, many American church leaders started calling for an immediate ceasefire based solely on human suffering rather than the political realities of the situation. Operation Cast Lead, Israel's ongoing effort to end indiscriminate rocket and mortar attacks on surrounding Israeli towns and villages, is necessary, morally justified, and legitimate, despite the calamitous cacophony from the loquacious Christian left.


Hamas chose not to continue the six-month cease-fire. When the ceasefire ended on Dec. 18, Hamas sent a barrage of Qassam rockets and Russian-built and Iranian-supplied Smerch (NATO codename "Grad‘) rockets into Israel. Short-range Qassams hit nearby Sderot and Ashkelon while Grads slammed into Beersheba 25 miles west and fell on the southern suburbs of Tel Aviv to the north. Neither of these rockets can inflict critical damage on hardened military targets. Grad anti-personnel missiles, designed to kill soldiers on the battlefield, can damage or destroy homes, apartment buildings, schools, automobiles, and buses. Hamas rarely attacks Israeli forts or military units stationed along the border. Rather, these terrorists fire rockets and missiles indiscriminately at nearby towns and cities to kill civilians. This is a war crime.


Hamas is guilty of other war crimes. It locates offices, munitions factories, and storage areas in and among the Palestinian citizenry. Combatants who use civilian populations as a shield are responsible for any harm inflicted upon them by an enemy. While the majority of casualties, even by Hamas' accounting, are terrorist fighters, there have been and will continue to be regrettable loss of life among innocent civilians. Hamas alone bears responsibility.


Under international law, the occupying power is obligated to protect the occupied population. Claims by the Christian left that Israel is "the responsible occupying power" are incredulous. In 2005, Israeli forces pulled out of Gaza, forcing thousands of Jewish settlers out as well. Soon thereafter, Hamas conducted a coup d'état, killing hundreds of opposing Palestinian political leaders. Hamas, which occupies all of Gaza, bears responsibility for protecting the population. Furthermore, Hamas' rocket and mortar attacks forced the Israeli response.


Israel's attacks focus on Hamas-controlled and security-related institutions, including the police and local security agencies. Claims that Hamas' police are a civilian entity separate from Hamas are specious. Hamas' Gaza police are as much a part of the same Hamas terrorist organization as were the SS and Gestapo in Nazi Germany. Killing them is no less illegitimate (or morally reprehensible) than was killing Reinhard Heydrich.


The Christian left continues to condemn any military action by Israel while ignoring Hamas' conduct that compelled Israel to initiate Operation Cast Lead. It condemns Israel for a "disproportionate response" while failing to set the context in which Hamas, from its inception, has been—and remains—committed to the total destruction of Israel.


As for the "disproportional" response, on Dec. 30, a Grad rocket blasted a hole in the roof of a primary school in Beersheba. If school had not been cancelled, that Grad would have slaughtered a classroom full of children. Every such rocket fired by Hamas into Israel, whether a "little" Qassam or a Grad, is fired with the intent of killing and maiming Jewish civilians: men, women, children, young and old alike. Israel builds shelters and provides a warning system to protect its citizens. Hamas, by contrast, places weapons in its mosques, hides terrorists among hospital staff, locates its offices in apartment buildings, and places its munitions factories and storage areas in neighborhoods. Nevertheless, Israel uses precision-guided munitions and makes every reasonable effort to minimize collateral damage and civilian casualties. Hamas, by contrast, almost exclusively targets civilians.


Israel undertook Operation Cast Lead as a last resort. Political realities in Israel compelled the current government to take action or face possible replacement by the more conservative Likud Party. Uncertainty over the level of commitment to Israel forthcoming from the United States after Jan. 20, 2009 likely played a role as well.


Israel must continue Operation Cast Lead to its culmination point. To inflict civilian casualties without destroying Hamas would be regrettable. Israel—and only Israel—can free Gaza from Hamas' occupational stranglehold. Doing so will facilitate the peace process and make possible a just and lasting peace with an independent Palestinian state. And the world, including the Palestinian people, will owe Israel gratitude.

I really do not want to get involved in yet another political argument here, but I found this from Rabbit's article funny as hell:  

"The Christian left"  

Is there really such a thing?  

Beyond that, and beleive me I am ceertainly no fan of the terrorists better known as Hamas, but Israel broke the cease fire this time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20090101212318310

lawrenson wrote:The death tolls are interesting.

Israel - about 20, nearly all military

Palestinians - approx 1100, with estimates of 30 - 50 % (depending who you believe), as military.

Damn Hamas aggressors eh?

Cheers,
Malc

Ugh.

lawrenson wrote:The death tolls are interesting.

Israel - about 20, nearly all military

Palestinians - approx 1100, with estimates of 30 - 50 % (depending who you believe), as military.

Damn Hamas aggressors eh?

Cheers,
Malc

Well, when terrorists fire rockets from houses, schools, hospitals, churches and mosques and other public areas within gaza (a place crammed with people), civilians are going to get hurt and killed. Hamas is using the populace as a human shield and a public relations strategy.

Understand that point correctly - they are using innocent people - women and children as human shields. They want as much carnage on your American TV screen as possible. When is the world going to wake up and understand how vile these extremist actually are?

And by the reaction of many (outside this forum) Hamas has already won. The anti-Isreal crowd is screaming from the rooftops. I can tell you that if Mexico was lobbing rockets, mortars and sending suicide bombers into Texas, we wouldn't be sitting around waiting for the UN to help us out. And you damn well bet no other country on the planet would come to our side - except Isreal. Why, because it surely must be the ugly americans fault and they must deserve it.

Just to be clear, I don't like sending money over to Isreal either. But if people want to believe blindly that Isreal without American support would survive, that's their right. They are dead wrong, but they can believe anything they want. If there was no threat of American intervention in an all-out war against Isreal, there would be no more Isreal. Millions would be slaughtered - on both sides.

lawrenson wrote:The death tolls are interesting.

Israel - about 20, nearly all military

Palestinians - approx 1100, with estimates of 30 - 50 % (depending who you believe), as military.

Damn Hamas aggressors eh?

Cheers,
Malc

A lot of people would say that's 1100 less future terrorists to worry about.  I'm not one of them, but that's what a lot of Americans will take out of those stats.  

The problem is the face of the Palestinians for decades was the odious Yassar Arafat and his tablecloth headress, he who did nothing for his people but get rich off graft and get fat dining with world leaders while actually doing nothing to derail his gravy train.  Then, with a chance to move forward, after his death the face of the Palestinians becomes....Hamas, a noted worldwide leader in terrorism.  If you can't cry you have to laugh......

What the Palestinians really need is better leaders that will actually lead, look to the future for their people,  and not instigate fighting in lieu of progress.  Look what Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela did in situations where ALL the odds were against them. As far as I know none of the above three preached proportionate violence, fired rockets, swore the deaths of their enemies, etc.  These three all realized that it was FAR more useful to win hearts and minds around the world than actual battles on battlefields.  I mean, seriously, what endgame do the Palestinians have in mind?   Is the complete destruction of Israel realistic?  Don't they realize that if Israel gets fed up someday they'll just drop a nuke?  They already don't give a damn what the world thinks about them, and the UN and other world bodies have proven themselves useless enforcing any sort of resolutions.

It would seem to be a more rational plan would be to turn the other cheek, renounce violence, and attempt to play the victim so well that it works with concessions and possibly resettlement for the Palestinian people.  The fact that they will not do this shows a lot about the mindset of their "leaders" and the hopelessness that any of them think it will ever change.  Seriously, I'd like anyone her to promote a realistic plan that would give the Palestinian people what they want, in a way that would prevent more bloodshed.  You can't as long as organizations like Hamas are part of the gameplan.  So I predict decades more of misery for them until a leader with vision does emerge.

Until the Palestinians put in place a leader who will put his people's wellfare first, and reject the violence of the past and of the masters in Iran and Syria, their country will be used as a punching bag for Israel until there is nothing left but dust.

Mike B.

bbarsh,

I guess the real difference in our two positions is that I do not care if Israel or the Palestinians cease to exist.  I just believe that negotiation is not the answer here.  Countries have come and gone throughout history.  Israel should get no special treatment.  Because of the way Israel was "created" there will never be peace between Israel and the arab world.  So let them fight it out.  If Israel wins great.  If the arab world wins so be it.

I know this is harsh, but let the slaughter begin.

jasonw1239 wrote:
Taking this into consideration it is difficult for Hamas to launch attacks that are not close to civilian areas just as it is difficult for Israel to attack without striking civilian targets.

While I agree that the confict is more complex than A vs B, people walking into crowded areas and boarding buses with vests laden with explosives is not simply just unintended civilian casualties.

Also,  I am not sure shooting rockets indiscriminately into a countries territory hoping it hits something, anything for that matter is justifiable.  Again, that's not to say that Israel is innocent of crossing the line sometimes, but I don't think that both sides are equal when it comes to this.

No, Hamas is not justified in attacking Israel.

However, how many ppl have died from these rocket attacks in the last 6 months? 3 or 4?  Yet you claim this justifies killing 1100 people

And now Israel is acting like a grown man with a baseball bat attacking a 5 year old armed with a fork.

The cynical timing also points to how culpable they are - over Christmas, and before Obama gets sworn in.

I'm sorry, but the whole American/Israeli love affair is beyond me.

Cheers,
malc