FormCritic wrote: We don't tend to have the same class consciousness that is expressed by our Brits.   We (or at least I, personally) don't regard everyone who needs government help to be a leech on society.

Hi,

this is NOT a British point of view.

It is a political point of view, and differs person to person.

I do not subscribe to it for instance.

The Class system varies widely too, tho that tends to depend on your geographical location and age.

"Class" does not matter amongst the people I know - education and earning power is more relevant. I think this is largely because we used to have a free University education system - I come from what could be described as a deprived background but am now a higher earner. If the current system was in place, I would not have gone on to higher education.

I also thought when I was in the USA that there was something of a blue/white collar divide forming....

Cheers,
Malc

FormCritic wrote:
I am aware that this can be puzzling to Britains because I frequently listen to the BBC America analysis of American events.  The BBC is mostly free of American poltical alliances but they tend to misinterpret American political and social issues in subtle but signficant ways.

That, my Acaeum brother, is a great place to get your news - cos the BBC News rocks!!!  Although to be fair there will always be some differences in translation between US and UK  

Here for example is the final report from the retiring BBC foreign correspondent based in the US.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/f ... 294890.stm

red_bus wrote:
That, my Acaeum brother, is a great place to get your news - cos the BBC News rocks!!!  Although to be fair there will always be some differences in translation between US and UK  

Here for example is the final report from the retiring BBC foreign correspondent based in the US.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/f ... 294890.stm

I would say that writer is pretty well dead on about most things.

One thing he was wrong about:  As far as I can tell, Obama's race is much more of a novelty to Europeans than to Americans.

The BBC can be a puzzling news source for Americans because it covers international news stories and points of view that are alien to our own news media.

FormCritic wrote:
Only in our news media...which is not poltitically neutral.

American society divides along political lines that have less to do with economics than race, religion and sub-culture.  

I am aware that this can be puzzling to Britains because I frequently listen to the BBC America analysis of American events.  The BBC is mostly free of American poltical alliances but they tend to misinterpret American political and social issues in subtle but signficant ways.

In the UK, the 'class system' is far more blurred than it used to be, and the 'class divides' are generally something that is media driven. That said, there has emerged over the past couple of decades a much larger sub-class who live solely on benefits and consume almost 90% of the UKs social resources. It is this sub-class that is the focus of media attention, because the people who work are paying for them and their kids. Tis is the 6% at the very bottom of our society, and the maybe 10% or so who live just above them and suppoert them either through petty criminality, or just by virtue of them being related to one another and provide appologise for them, faces for court, and money in simpathy for a kid turned to drugs or whatever.

If you have the money not to have to deal with them, and you can afford to just pay for them in taxes, so much the better. But I guess that's why some shops price themselves out of the underclass market, as they have come to realise that there is added value in offering your customers a more pleasant shopping environment, and a feeling of safety for wives and children who are not used to welfare society in all its glory.

Personally, I'd rather pay £50K a year to keep some bottom feeder family on an estate somewhere where we dont see them, than put that £50K into paying for students who can't be arsed working hard and getting through university and the rest of their lives on their own merits. That's a very hot topic here in the UK, with riots and all sorts, But all it seems to be serving is highlighting the problem with the education, wisdom and motivations of students in our country, and the God given right everyone seems to believe they have to everything in our society.

There is very little difference between a middle class offsprout who believes he has a God given right to free education regardless of his intelligence or capability, and a family of underlings who believe they have a God given right to an entire life with no work.

Neither believes they should have to work hard and make a life for themselves. This laziness and lack of responsibility is killing our society. Id does however create jobs for social workers, police, fire and medical staff, so I suppose they should be left to their own devices.

Thankfully, here in the UK most of the problems are focussed on these minorities, and if it were not for the media, on the whole you could ignore them. As with the US, the mojority of crime remains within its own class.

What I was trying to say is that no-one should be brought up to believe they have a God Given Right to anything. I don't believe anyone should have the right to treat people immorally or unfairly, that's what laws are for, but I also don't believe anyone should have the right to suck off of society and consume a disproportionate share of community resources just because they are too stupid, too lazy or too much of an a$$hole to live a life as a decent human being.

Teaching our children that everything should be available to them for free regardless of how hard they are willing to work for it, or how much they are willing to give back, is as morally flawed and just telling them to sit on their a$$es and such off of all the d!ckheads who pay taxes.

People should work for what they have and value what is given to them. Education is absolutely free, and the only people who cannot find work are those too lazy or ignorant to be bothered looking for it.

FormCritic wrote:
I would say that writer is pretty well dead on about most things.

One thing he was wrong about:  As far as I can tell, Obama's race is much more of a novelty to Europeans than to Americans.

The BBC can be a puzzling news source for Americans because it covers international news stories and points of view that are alien to our own news media.

Really good article.  He hit a few nails on the head and only missed on a couple. The Euro fascination with Obama is explainable, I guess, but I think they miss a lot of the nuances, just as Mark said the race factor as theater has largely worn off here (if it ever really was more than a talking point anyway). A lot of Europeans were actually puzzled at how embarrassed Obama himself was when he won the Nobel Peace Prize for essentially just being black...in this country, if you don't earn a prize, you don't deserve it, something Obama instinctively knew and reacted to...a lesson I was surprised more Europeans didn't "get" considering the history of this country.

My brother was in London a few months ago, and he was talking politics with a few fellows in a pub (a recipe for disaster, but they took it easy on him since he was an American!).  Everyone he talked to was puzzled that Obama was disliked by anyone in the country, and were genuinely flummoxed when my brother explained to them that the Democrats were going to get hammered in the mid term elections.  Our present president is definitely idealized much more by our overseas brothers than in his home country.

I think a lot of foreigners don't "get" the American people because their view is distorted by the "edges" that are featured on the media.  California (on the west coast) and New York (on the east coast) get the predominate share of attention and are probably the most visable examples of our cultures, yet they are to the extremes in the country itself.  Heading from the edges to the middle you get the "true" America, which I don't think is seen by many Europeans who only know Hollywood and Manhattan and  form their views from movies, TV reality shows, and sports.  Middle America still goes to church every sunday, goes hunting with guns, hates communism, loves capitalism,  distrusts foreigners, supports the troops, in theory if not practice supports the death penalty and handgun ownership, and looks upon going to college and getting an education as a stepping stone to better things. I don't know if these attitudes properly come through the filter that our media (especially Hollywood) presents to the world.  A single athiest lesbian parent who loves Hugo Chavez, protest private gun ownership, and want to ban McDonald's Happy Meals would be one VERY extreme view, yet if you took a sampling of reality shows, new magazine shows, and popular culture you might get a very unrealistic view of the "norm" in this country (although the great thing about America is you might have the above cariacature person living next door to a gun loving, church going, mother of three working for Wallmart and neither would think that circumstance was odd because "It's America")

The blue collar/white collar divide isn't really that evident to me because someone coming from the worst ghetto project of the inner city or the most bass-ackward hillbilly town in the mountains can end up a millionaire by working their ass off, and there are too many examples to count of this happening to discourage anyone from any walk of life from trying to get ahead.  I guess what I'm saying is that the attitude of a lot of blue collar workers is that with a bit of luck and hard work they'll be a white collar worker, or at least making more money than one pretty soon, so it's more like a goal to reach than an actual divide.

I also find, here in the ground floor, your average America is much less bent out of shape by the "Immigration problem" than the media makes it out to be.  If the government stopped grandstanding and politicizing the problem they could figure out a workable solution in a week that might not make everyone happy but would be acceptable.

Mike B.

That is probably true of all nations and cultures, which make communities like this one all the more important.

On the whole I think steriotypes work well as a barometer for a nation's values and thinking, but am fortunate in that I tend to generally meet the more enlightened and intelligent people from various countries.

Unfortunately, what we see on Jeremy Kyle and Trisha holds true for whole chunks of UK society, and what happend on the News, while it may be sensationalised, is for the most part true.

I can only imagine the same is the case for Judge Judy and the US News stations.

Forums like Acaeum tend to attract a certain level of intelligence and openmindedness that I don't believe is 'typical' of any of our countries.

I think it was a little out of order that Obama get a NPP for being black. It seems the NPP is more a politicabody with a political agenda now, than anything to do contribution to peace.

I'm sure Obama is seen differently outside of the US, but it's funny that the the old addage rang true. I can't recall who exactly said it, but it basicly went like this... Britain would always elect a woman to be Prime Minister before they'd elect a black man, and America would always elect a black man to be president before they'd elect a woman. It goes to perceptions of UK and US value systems back in the 60's and 70's, but it's funny that it came true, and goes to show that both our countries core value systems have not changed as much as one would think.

mbassoc2003 wrote:I think it was a little out of order that Obama get a NPP for being black. It seems the NPP is more a politicabody with a political agenda now, than anything to do contribution to peace.

Do you guys get to watch the animated TV show "Southpark" in the UK?

There was a Southpark episode where the childrens' gay teacher was trying to get fired for being gay...so he could sue the school district.  Unfortunately for his plan, no matter what he did everyone would say, "Oh, that's so brave!  That's just so brave!"

Obama winning the Nobel Peace Prize was just like a classic Southpark moment.

He did not win the prize just because he was black.  He won it because he was black...and got elected president...and said such noble, lofty, ludicrous things.

No matter what ridiculous thing Obama said, everyone acted like it was soooo profound and interesting and brave and...just...wow!  He promised things he could not deliver...that no one could deliver....and promised we could all do it if we hope enough.

"Oh!  That's so brave!"

Presto:  Just like a stupid moment on Southpark, Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize.

It was an emarrassment for Obama and a real loss of prestige for the Nobel Peace Prize.